Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

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Duey_C
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Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:36 am

Back story. I can't recall the values but we regularly replace the condensers with capacitors in our model T coils. Old news.
I have orange drop capacitors for my Twin City tractor magnetos that we also regularly replace the aging condensers. Old news.
American Bosch ZR-4's, U-4's and would be perfect for DU-4's also. Funny, some replacement mags for the T's. ;)
Maybe even good for E-4 or F-4 IH magnetos. Don't recall the values there either. :oops:

More back story. I have a late 90's TTP dizzy on the 24 Crappy model T. The original Bosch condenser lasted a LONG time.
The replacement condenser I'm not betting on. A couple years ago already, It refused to start.
My oldest VERY reliable crank starting Model T.
Yes I know but did not even have access to a box and coils back then so it got a dizzy. $320 Dollars back then! Oww!

Question: Anyone out here have a guess about values for a replacement capacitor for (let's say) a Bosch JFU4 DISTRIBUTOR for an early 80's Gehl skid loader with a 98 cu in Ford Industrial engine (Pinto) OR EVEN a T powered Texas T Parts distributer?
Very similar distributors.

Even more back story. I had wondered about replacing the Gehl's new Bosch (Turkey) condenser with a capacitor the last couple years but bit the bullet and bought a new US made distributer from a company out east. $$$$
Ugh. Pertronix Ignitor II.
Runs better already. AND about the LAST time I work in the back door of that consarned loader.
Can't even see where the distributor goes into... :evil:
I'm tiring of modern condensers. Like others are.
Any help much appreciated. Thanks!
:)
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Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:22 am

Condensers and capacitors are the same thing, aren't they???

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:37 am

You know they aren't.
Shoot. You got me there...
They really are the same...
:lol: You know full-well what I was getting at. :lol:
I'm looking for values for an orange drop capacitor to be used in a four cylinder distributer like a Bosch that might be on a T.
:)
Thank you at least for responding. :)
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:13 pm

Duey_C wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 12:37 am
You know they aren't.
Shoot. You got me there...
They really are the same...
:lol: You know full-well what I was getting at. :lol:
I'm looking for values for an orange drop capacitor to be used in a four cylinder distributer like a Bosch that might be on a T.
:)
Thank you at least for responding. :)
I really wasn't trying to be a smart aleck. As to your question, I really don't believe an orange drop style condenser/capacitor/thingy is correct to use on a distributor.

Here is what I would use. If it doesn't fit inside the distributor body then just hang it on the outside.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/A-C-Condenser- ... SwSw1eQz75

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:38 pm

I know you weren't being a smart aleck. No worries there.
But you make me think. That's a good thing. Thank you.

Both of these Bosch dizzys already carry the condenser outside so that wouldn't be much of an issue.
Nobody stamps values on condensers anymore and parts men cannot say what they are either. Also part of the hang-up.
The ten hour run time with genuine parts before needing replacement is what's getting to me.
Always trying to think outside the box also.
Have a 70's Bolens large-frame tractor with the 20 horse Kohler twin. Those NAPA or Kohler condensers weren't any good either so I bought a condenser for a '73 Chevy 350. Works fine now thankfully. I asked Barry (he's a parts book man) what the values were. He didn't know.
Turned an IH F-6 magneto into a 12 volt remote automotive coil due to a bad original internal coil many years ago.
And the American Bosch mags here now with capacitors of course.
Longevity is the aim with the dizzys.

OK. I'm going to ask: Why wouldn't a capacitor be correct for a distributor? Not needling/poking at you. Curious.

Edited. One word for correct grammar. Du
Last edited by Duey_C on Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:00 am

Don't know why you couldn't use a capacitor. The single lead auto condenser is grounded thru the case (re grounded, pretty sure on that) with the lead going to the points. Some Dodge's use a condenser that has two leads, one end going to the points the other to ground, which should be like the capacitor with two leads. Wouldn't they both do the same job?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:31 pm

Duey_C wrote:
Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:38 pm

OK. I'm going to ask: Why wouldn't a capacitor be correct for a distributor? Not needling/poking at you. Curious.
Duey,

I'll admit that my reasoning is pretty weak. It's because I've never seen it done. The thought being, that if that were the best way to do it, you'd see it done often. Certainly no harm in trying it out. Maybe start with the orange drop style & rating recommended for T buzz coils? Wish we could get some EE's to chime in here...


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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:36 pm

Check this out. Especially the second to last paragraph...

https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig129.htm

Here's some more chatter...

https://www.smokstak.com/forum/threads/ ... on.143172/

But wait, there's more!!!

https://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com ... -condenser


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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:47 pm

And... as to "orange drops" this was taken from an AACA forum posting, "You should be able to substitute a modern .22uF, 600V or higher voltage rating film or poly capacitor (orange drop). They are non-polarized. I have used this method to re-stuff an original condenser when appearance/originality is important."

(So, what do I know.... :roll: :) )

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:00 am

I’d like to see one of those two-lead Dodge condensers someday Mark. Interesting!
Aha! That’s the info that’s been eluding me Jerry.
MGA guru Barney’s write-up is easy to read and echoes my growing sentiment and findings.
I’ve read something similar a long time ago.
The Studebaker club’s thread is fantastic and there’s more info right there on the stak!
Many thousand thanks Sir!
Did some more digging today, three T suppliers won’t tell the uF value of the cap (capacitor) in the T coil.
In ‘09 Glen Chafin mentions in Toon’s thread that they “....use the 0.47uF, 400V polypropylene capacitor with a dV/dt rating of 6000.”
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80 ... 1248132830
Glen also had easy to understand info about the T coil condenser. Been there done that (adding a condenser to the outside of a model T coil) for a 1920 Fairbanks Morse engine that's putted away for many years that way.
Nasty old T coil. Zapped son a couple years ago. Hehehe!
This gets deep if ya look into caps... I merely dabble...
Yes. I type too much. Sometimes to my own embarrassment.

OK. Simply put.
A rebuilt model T coil nowadays has a modern .47uF orange drop capacitor. I have four here from Andy.
Most of the automotive world deals with about .22uF to .29uF capacitors. Good old condensers.
Air cooled engines like Onan’s seem to like .3uF (.30uF?) cap/condenser.
(Similar coils to the older Kohler twins with the “waste spark” method. Anyone understanding that statement chime in here.) :-)
American Bosch ZR-4, U-4 and DU-4 magnetos also use the .22uF caps as replacements.
Dare I say this translates to the easier to relate to 47, 22-29 and 30 MicroFarads?
Named after Michael Faraday.
Corrections always appreciated! And on my nomenclature/grammer.

I have a couple 0.22uF 400V orange drop (Vishay) Sprague 225P’s left over and I’ll need more from West Florida Components if they also work in the IH F-4 magnetos here. F-4‘s are different birds.

I have a small job set for me this spring/summer! Armed with this “new” information, put an orange drop on my ‘24 Crappy Runabout’s Bosch dizzy to find the ins & outs of doing it.
My future sees a .22uF orange drop cap, some small heat shrink tubing, a couple crimp/solder-on electrical fittings, a soldered-on extension wire and a bit of luck.

The AACA fellow about re-stuffing a capacitor in a something... He’s right, can be done.
Last winter pics from my cozy little shop. American Bosch ZR-4. The U-4 and DU-4 are very similar.
1. 6164. Old condenser. See the wax around the old paper condenser? It smells horrible. Opened the door and used the fan in the middle of winter. Yuck. But it’s gotta go for the orange drop cap install. Don't inhale that wax smell.
2. 7123. Orange drop ready to be “potted” in. I used Ultra Black to hold it in the body.
3. 2595. Ready to solder the brass top back on the body. Note the threads in the nipple. They’re about done.
4. 2136. See the condenser body under the armature’s end plate. That pic is the armature coming apart.
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:13 am

I don't know if any of the 3 or 4 Dodge distributors in my "collection" have the the type with 2 leads installed, I would need to go look. Here is one on eBay;
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-1918-1928- ... 3731397323
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:22 pm

I would probably go with 600V instead of 400V. Maybe a bit more robust.

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:58 pm

That Northeast type condenser is crazy-cool Mark! I grabbed an image for the few interested.
Even a tour of my shop would show condensers/capacitors came in all shapes back then.
Makes me wonder what I did for that on a paper-wound (steel based and hat) coil for the Globelight engine & 32 Volt generator.
But it worked!
I'm crossing my fingers Jerry. With that said, I saved a Vishay Sprague .pdf and they do have 225P caps in the 600V range.
Back to study! Perhaps between my source and the original info source, there may have been a minor detail gone astray.
Or I simply made a dumb mistake... ;)
Thank you! :)
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Mark Gregush » Wed Feb 03, 2021 9:14 pm

I went thru my "collection" could not find one with it installed, I did have one loose. Did not look in the Dodge to see if it has one installed, didn't want to unwrap it today! The weather should be better tomorrow and will take a look see, need to run it anyway. :)
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup

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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by Duey_C » Fri Mar 05, 2021 11:08 pm

I sent West Coast Components an email and it turns out they do NOT have a Vishay-Sprague 600 Volt version of these 0.22uF Orange Drop caps I'm looking for.
For the time being, I'll stick with the 400 Volt version.
Thanks guys!
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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:14 pm

I think the correct value (capacitance) of a capacitor/condenser in an ignition system is determined by the coil's characteristics. A value anywhere near correct will work, but the closer to the proper value, the longer the points will last.


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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by fishndale » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:30 pm

TXGOAT2 wrote:
Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:14 pm
I think the correct value (capacitance) of a capacitor/condenser in an ignition system is determined by the coil's characteristics. A value anywhere near correct will work, but the closer to the proper value, the longer the points will last.
I have 4 working coils and they all have 3000 to 4000 nF (3 to 4 uF) capacitors. They appear to be original, unopened, with the Ford logo. One has a small Ford logo with a big letter C under it. The capacitors look like the originals (glass insulator, 2 wood blocks and tarred).
I hate to open them and put 0.47uF instead since they work.
Comments?


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Re: Capacitors to replace condensors: T's and other things.

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:10 pm

I'd use them, and carry a spare working coil just in case. They might work for years, or not.

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