This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

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This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:23 am

Found this for sale in Germany on PreWarCar.com, it reminded me of another similar racer discussed some time ago that was supposedly the last one remaining, well... there seems to be another one or is it the same car ? Is it the real deal or what? anyone have a clue about this one ?

Have a look here : https://www.prewarcar.com/292643-1929-f ... pital-gain
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Rich Eagle » Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:35 pm

There are lots of fun things going on there. Well done.
Thanks
Rich
When did I do that?


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Apr 30, 2020 4:25 am

You may not like my opinion. I have doubts about its true authenticity. I don't think that Ford built such a car during the model A years, and anything they would have built would have likely been used by Ford. However, about that, I am NOT any authority in the model A years.
Several things on the car are not correct period for 1930. Air filter (?), carburetor, lamps, all appear later. Some of the parts used are not typical for racing cars of that era. And a "stock" engine head??! (I would expect a Riley overhead?) I would guess, like a couple of the T speedsters I "resurrected", it may have some pieces from some original era racing car. Integrated with general parts and not enough knowledge of how things were done in the era.
Very much a nice and probably very fun car! But a "concourse" car?

They say they have era photos and documentation. I would want to see all that before making any decisions.

I don't know the exchange rates, and am certainly not familiar with European collector car markets.But it seems a bit pricey (high?) to me for what it looks like. Maybe prices and values are that much higher there? (I know the import costs are quite high! And that does need to be reflected in the collector prices in Europe)
IF (that big "IF" again) there is good documentation and photos back to new? And it really was like that? That might change things a lot.

And I don't want to talk someone out of something they may really want. And if they can afford it and it is worth that to them, even more so (I don't want to talk someone out of it). But you did ask. And coupled with some of the words I read in the description (typical pie in the sky sales stuff!), and what I see in the pictures? I am not favorably impressed.
My apologies.

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 am

Hey Wayne, you don't have to apologise for anhonest opinion, it raised some questions with me too, and that is exactly why i posted this.
Last night it came to me, it reminded me of the French "Montier"Specials, he was the French Ford Importer (as far as i remember right, that is becoming an issue lately), and raced Fords extensively in among other places Le Mans.
One of his racers, a '23 T, was discussed here earlier,http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1432450044
Montier had several specials built through the years, T's, A's, B's and V8s
I don't know to what extent he built them in cooperation with the factory in the US, or if he had them built in the US or what, but several survive, a 23T is in the Museum of American Speed, another resurfaced in France, http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1479790447
I hope Chris Martin chimes in here as i think he is the expert on the Montier Fords.
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri May 01, 2020 7:04 am

I know of the Montier model T racing cars, and have seen several era photos of them. I did not know they built any such cars in the model A or V8 era. Interesting. I would still question a Montier racer having a stock head engine? But it does bring some interest in the car's supposed history. If it can be verified.

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat May 02, 2020 2:38 pm

No comment other then the gauges look out of place as does the Ford emblem in the center of the steering wheel.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by OilyBill » Wed May 20, 2020 12:53 am

I guess it could be Ford Racing, if it was from a dealer in Europe.
I don't believe Ford did ANY racing in the U.S. Individuals raced Ford cars, but Ford had no racing team.
Ford special cars were normally built by Edsel Ford, and he did his usually magnificent styling job on them. They are generally conspicuous by their very nice looks and finish. To me, this looks like a late-built hot-rod project, and probably nothing to do with Ford.
But perhaps a Ford distributor or dealer in Europe DID make an attempt at racing. They couldn't have done much, not with THIS car, up against Bugattis and others of that class. I would be highly suspicious they would even try.
I don't believe ANY Ford would have been competitive in Europe after 1912 or so. Certainly not Model T's, and likely not Model A's
Until the later race efforts, of course!


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:47 pm

Ok, first I can guarantee that is NOT a Montier.

I suspect what it is is a recent recreation made in Argentina.
There has long been a tradition down there for racing vintage cars with lightweight Speedster bodies - called 'baquets' - and there are several people in and around Buenos Aires still making them. Back in the 1920s Argentina was earning good money from the cattle and beef industry (my grandfather even left England as a 16 year old to work as a ‘gaucho’ for a couple of years) and American cars were best suited to the rugged roads so there are plenty of donor cars.

There is a dealer in Belgium who has been importing several of these into Europe for some time; here is a link to a recently sold Studebaker for example:
http://www.mecanicimport.com/cars/detai ... -vert-noir

As far as I know the cars they sold have always been honestly described. However, a subsequent owner may make up their own history and I can prove a recent example which surfaced in my ongoing Montier research - and this fake makes the claims of that one quoted above look quite innocent !
A couple of Argentinian Ford A racers (I have had contact with the builder) were sold to the Belgian dealer and they were sold on as nothing more than Model A Speedsters. A Belgian buyer of one of these, who was already well known in historic racing and rallying events in Europe, decided it would have more kudos if he gave it a false identity with period history and called it a Montier. But here is the big surprise; he even applied for, and received an FIVA passport, which is the official documentation needed to be eligible for any historic racing events. How he managed to fool them throws into doubt the expertise of the FIVA’s officials and therefore the authenticity of how many other ‘historic racers’ out there? I have had correspondence with the FIVA offices in Turin asking them to investigate how this car was granted documentation as I am writing a much bigger updated book about the Montier story and am trying to identify all survivors. I hope they can give me some answers as I doubt the FIVA would want their own expertise discredited in print.

Anyway, the papers were originally granted some years ago, and it was subsequently sold to another historic racer in Spain, who believed he had bought the real thing (and supported by the FIVA papers why wouldn’t he?) and despite me since providing him with all the evidence to the contrary, he is still trying to sell it on again as a genuine Montier-Ford.
The proof is simple, he even sent me a scan of the FIA papers which clearly shows the chassis number with the RPA prefix which denotes it was made in Ford’s factory in Argentina, and I sent him photos of the original Montier Model As as raced back in the day as well as photos of others from the same Argentinian source clearly showing exactly the differences.

But how about the even more obvious clue………the fake Montier, as with the car advertised above, is right-hand-drive !
Argentine cars back then were RHD, but any car from the so-called ‘Ford Racing’ whoever that was, whether American or European would have been based on a left-hand-drive chassis as were all of Charles Montier racers.
If curious somebody could enquire of the advertiser for the supporting papers; I would bet it has an RPA chassis number……..


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:54 pm

The fake Montier-Ford in Spain is the silver and blue one, the yellow one was made by the same people in Argentina and also imported by the Belgian dealer and was last heard of for sale in France with no other claim other than just being a Model A Speedster made in Argentina. Both are also right-hand-drive.
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:59 pm

And to compare, a few of the original Model A based Montier racers from the 1930 and 1931 European Grand Prix season. These had a strange look as Montier lowered the center section of the chassis between the axles to lower the c of g and moved the radiator forward to clear the front axle. Not the prettiest vintage Ford but quite effective in their day.
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:16 pm

OilyBill wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 12:53 am
............ perhaps a Ford distributor or dealer in Europe DID make an attempt at racing. They couldn't have done much, not with THIS car, up against Bugattis and others of that class. I would be highly suspicious they would even try.
I don't believe ANY Ford would have been competitive in Europe after 1912 or so. Certainly not Model T's, and likely not Model A's
Until the later race efforts, of course!
Charles Montier had quite a lot of success between 1921 and 1928 with his increasingly modified Model T based racers. He raced mainly in France and Belgium where circuit racing, road racing and hillclimbs were popular with both the top professional teams and many wealthy amateurs. There were events nearly every week back then and he achieved many class wins.
He even occasionally raced in Spain and even traveled as far as Algeria in north Africa which was then a French colony.
The Model As followed but were by now outclassed in top level Grand Prix events although still used for hillclimbs.
The photo below shows Charles and Ferdinand Montier in their Model As starting the 1931 Belgian Grand Prix from right at the back behind Bugattis, Alfas and a lone Mercedes.
Later in '33 frustrated by waiting for a supply of Ford's new V8 he even built a racer with two Model A engines back to back (so, a Ford straight eight ?) second photo.
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:13 pm

Thanks a bunch Chris, although id does not clear up what it is, it sure does clear up what it isn't !
I was hoping you'd chime in for your expertise on these cars, you must have seen quite a few fakes and lookalikes !
Not that i don't like people like the Argentinians building cars to their liking, they build some fantastic cars, but a car should be sold with its proper history, selling fakes is a big discredit to the classic car hobby and market.
Again thanks for chiming in , looking forward to your new updated book !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:48 am

Chris M, Thank you for all that! I always enjoy your contributions, especially on Montier history.


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm

Kaiser wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:13 pm
Thanks a bunch Chris, although id does not clear up what it is, it sure does clear up what it isn't !
I was hoping you'd chime in for your expertise on these cars, you must have seen quite a few fakes and lookalikes !
Not that i don't like people like the Argentinians building cars to their liking, they build some fantastic cars, but a car should be sold with its proper history, selling fakes is a big discredit to the classic car hobby and market.
Again thanks for chiming in , looking forward to your new updated book !
Well no, I can't tell you who made it, but from the look and as it is RHD I would bet it came from one of those Argentine workshops.
And as long as it is honestly described there is nothing wrong with that, some of them have been making some nice cars for quite a while. The claims in the ad for that one at the top are a bit fanciful but at the same time vague enough to not really mean anything, no names, dates or facts that could be disputed, just vague claims. So it would be hard to even call it a fake if there are no facts to be disproved.
The Model A in Spain is the only 'fake' Montier I have discovered, there have been a few 'replicas' but as long as they are honestly described as such there is no problem; these are not 'fake'.
As I said, this vintage racer trend is quite popular in Argentina and the dealer in Belgium who has sold many in Europe has not tried to disguise their origins. The problem is with some less than scrupulous subsequent owners who make false claims, and then once sold on the fake history goes with it and gets passed on until it is eventually accepted as true.
My concern with the fake Montier was how did someone manage to fool the FIVA into granting papers that give it some official authenticity when it would not have taken much research by them to discover the truth.


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:43 pm

Kaiser wrote:
Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:13 pm
............ looking forward to your new updated book !
Don't hold your breath. I am working on something else right now with a deadline to have that finished by the end of the year.
Commissioned by a British publisher and well paid too it must get priority so poor old Charles Montier has been pushed back in the desk drawer for now.
The Montier research over the last few years has uncovered a lot more history, authentic photos and even a couple more cars.
It will be self-published and I will be writing that in both English and French as I do not anticipate huge sales so it makes sense to cater for both markets with one print run but it will probably be another year before I get that done.
I will post info on the forum nearer the time.
And thanks.
Chris M

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:55 am

Thanks Chris, I'm still breathing...
Like you noticed in the add, it was just that vagueness that alerted me, you are right there are no false claims in the ad, it only hints at a racing history but still i think sellers should be a bit more straight in telling what it really is, there should be no misinterpretation possible for the potential buyer.
Thanks, Leo
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:48 pm

Kaiser wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:10 am
....... Montier was the French Ford Importer (as far as i remember right, that is becoming an issue lately), and raced Fords extensively......
To clarify that point; Montier never was the 'importer', just an agent.

The early years of Fords in France and Montier's involvement is complicated.

Henri DePasse was the first Paris based agent for Ford. He imported a Model N in 1907 and started the Paris branch of the Ford Motor Cie in '08 at 32 Boulevard Bourdon, Neuilly. Due to the success of the T and the numbers he sold he opened a factory at 63 rue Fondaudège, Bordeaux in 1913 and then at 33-37 Boulevard Albert 1er, where CKD kits were shipped in and assembled. In 1916 Percival Perry who had helped set up Ford’s British operations and controlled Ford of Britain was sent to Paris to create Société Française des Automobiles Ford on May 25th to take over from Depasse. This was part of Ford’s plans for an ever growing world-wide manufacturing capability and the desire to keep control of how their products were produced, distributed, sold and serviced rather than leave their reputation to the mercies of independent importers. Ford then bought the Bordeaux properties in July 1916. This became an urgent need during the war and produced many T based ambulances.
Later, in the 1920s, Ford built a larger plant at Asnières-sur-Seine near Paris, with a daily capacity of 250 cars using two parallel production lines, one for ModelT cars and one for TT trucks.

Charles Montier had been working for Darracq in Paris but left in 1911 to go back to his ancestral town of Tours. There he started up a garage with his brother Eugene at 64 Place Michelet and they acquired a Ford agency. After the 1914-18 war Charles set up his on his own with a workshop at Courbevoie, Paris and a Ford agency at 67 rue Pierre Charron just off the Champs-Elysées and left the Tours business in the hands of Eugene who later added ‘Garage Moderne’ in Loudon and ‘Garage du Palais’ at 15 Bd. Solférino, Poitiers both also Ford agencies.
The latter business by 1934 was listed as Montier et Pinon at 12 rue Arthur-Ranc Poitiers and were agents for Mathis as well as Ford which may be a clue as to what happened next.

On October 8th 1934 at the Paris Salon it was announced that Ford had formed a partnership with Mathis. Ford needed more manufacturing capacity and Mathis had only just survived the depression with a recently modernised factory at Strasbourg but not enough sales to sustain it so they signed a five year contract to build the new car named the Matford.
Despite his many competition successes promoting Ford in France and further afield Charles Montier was disappointed to find his Ford agency contract cancelled in 1934. The only evidence I can find of why this was is because both Mathis and Ford already had established dealerships and the merger meant they only needed one in each town so in many cases a Ford or Mathis dealer was left with no cars to sell. Depasse continued as the main agent in Paris, I have not yet found what happened to Eugene’s garages in Tours and Loudon and wonder if the mysterious M. Pinon who was listed as a partner in the Poitiers garage by 1934 had been the Mathis agent and took over that business as well.
Research continues…………

So, the story of who was selling Fords in Paris is that Henri Depasse was the first to import and sell them but Montier also had an agency by the 1920s.

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:28 pm

Very clarifying, thanks for that, the Depasse name is well known to me through my searches into the WW1 ambulance history, and the American Field Ambulance (later Am. Field Service) history in particular.
I should have checked my facts before firing from the hip ;)
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by OilyBill » Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:26 pm

Chris, I am very impressed with what they did with Model T's, running them against Bugattis. Obviously they were very talented, and mechanically skillful, because the stock Model T was laughable when put up against a Bugatti, or any other high class French or German car, for that matter. If they were able to be competitive, (Which it is quite apparent that they WERE, it was because of their personal commitment and skill.)
No bad reflection on the Model T. They just simply were NOT in that class of car.


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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:01 pm

OilyBill wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:26 pm
Chris, I am very impressed with what they did with Model T's, running them against Bugattis. Obviously they were very talented, and mechanically skillful, because the stock Model T was laughable when put up against a Bugatti, or any other high class French or German car, for that matter. If they were able to be competitive, (Which it is quite apparent that they WERE, it was because of their personal commitment and skill.)
No bad reflection on the Model T. They just simply were NOT in that class of car.
But not so fast there.....Many Fords raced back in the day. The motor had enough low down grunt and once most extraneous bodywork is shed you have a light weight racer with a strong heart. Montier himself found the lack of brakes the major shortcoming and added four-wheel brakes for his 1924 return to Le Mans. In fact his 1923 effort was with a sleeved down 2 litre engine; this was an option in Europe where the local authorities taxed a car according to the bore size, so although capacity was reduced by nearly 33% the long stroke meant it still had plenty of torque.
Many others raced Model Ts around the world, there were the SpeedSports in Belgium and Stirling Moss's dad even raced one of those at Brooklands. Alfred Moss also raced a T at Indianapolis and didn't disgrace himself. There were many more cases but one closer to home here in Australia was Ossie Cranston who raced and hillclimbed a T named 'Hezza Henry' at numerous events in Perth and around Western Australia. Coincident to your remark about "laughable when put up against a Bugatti" here is a photo from 1927 of Cranston lining up for a race at Lake Perkolilli with, left to right; Arthur Colliver in a modified Chrysler 70, Cyril Poole in a Bugatti T37, Cranston and Ford, and Jack Smith with a cut-down Buick.
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:11 am

You are absolutely right there Chris, although the T is considered a light car with small capacity engine in the US, it was quite "Big" compared to most European light cars, that Bugatti 37 has a capacity of 1496cc compared to the 2878cc of a standard T.
Reason for that is the way cars were taxed in notably France and England where some or other formula was used that used the bore of the engine as a main way of determining the horsepower of the engine for calculating the amount of yearly tax to be paid on a car, for instance the French government considered the 30s Ford V8 to be 20CV (CV for Chevaux, horses).
So in fact that T had a good chance against the Bugatti, the other two cars are notably bigger and heavier than the two "little ones" and it would be interesting to know the results of that race !
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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Chris Martin 2 » Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:56 pm

Kaiser wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:11 am
You are absolutely right there Chris, although the T is considered a light car with small capacity engine in the US, it was quite "Big" compared to most European light cars, that Bugatti 37 has a capacity of 1496cc compared to the 2878cc of a standard T.
Reason for that is the way cars were taxed in notably France and England where some or other formula was used that used the bore of the engine as a main way of determining the horsepower of the engine for calculating the amount of yearly tax to be paid on a car, for instance the French government considered the 30s Ford V8 to be 20CV (CV for Chevaux, horses).
So in fact that T had a good chance against the Bugatti, the other two cars are notably bigger and heavier than the two "little ones" and it would be interesting to know the results of that race !
In fact the T was also rated as a 20hp in Europe for tax reasons, hence the sleeved down option. That continued with the Euro spec Model A also offered as a 2 litre. The British also adopted a similar taxation system in about '23 and T sales dropped off quickly (except for T trucks which were exempt from tax) there is some suggestion that it was due to Herbert Austin lobbying parliament, and sure enough the Austin Seven (which was basically a scaled down Model T anyway) gained sales while Ford lost.
As for that dry lake race in the photo; the Chrysler won, Buick second and Cranston's Ford was third. The Bugatti retired with engine failure. So not Cranston's best result but he did beat the Bug' that day, and he had won many other races there.

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Re: This B racer for sale raised some questions with me..

Post by Kaiser » Mon Sep 07, 2020 2:36 pm

Well he came third, that's on the podium right? :lol: :lol:
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