MTFCA Forum

Sis helping Dad to . . . ? An appealing photo, but what's the make and midel of the car ?? (No date or location for the pic)

It's the girl's job to readjust the headlight in a downward position while dad adds oil to the engine.

Could that be a Huppmobile?

Although some of the distinguishing features are hidden I think it may be a 1921 or so Buick like this one. https://local.mecum.com/lots/SC0518-340 ... k-touring/

I'm still partial to it being a 1921 Hupmobile

Engine appears to be an early '20's Buick judging from the water outlet pipe and valve cover. Per the engine photo from the link Rich E. provided. Hubcap looks like early '20's Buick as well.

The Hupmobile also had their plumbing running at an angle above the head.

I also see a square back window and wide running boards.

I like Hupmobiles too Perry. Here is where I see the similarities to the Buick. The bead in the fender and no lip, the curve of the radiator shell and the hubcap. It even has the same bumper. I don't see a drum headlight or slanted louvers.
I'm always open to other suggestions. Thanks for your input as always.
Rich

Thanks Rich,

I need to train myself to look at all the details instead of just one or two features. I'm trying to learn but I'm a slow student. Thanks for pointing out the louvers, headlight, and fenders and other small features I need to look for.

It's easy to miss things. I had to edit this. I had posted a photo of a '20 which didn't have the door handles. Someone would have caught that I'm sure.

I'm amused by the great similarity among cars of a given period. One can date photos within a couple of years from the cars. Teens, early 20s, mid-20s all have their own general "look". It's also fun to see the modern photos compared with the old ones. I'm not sure, but a proportional difference I think I'm seeing between the old and the green Buick could be the difference between a seven passenger and five passenger body ?

Thanks for "playing" fellows !

That's very possible Rich. Buick did offer the Model 45, 118" W.B. and the Model 49, 124" W. B. Both touring cars. I would think the distance between doors would be a noticeable difference. It seems 1922 was much the same but 1923 the fenders were crowned and they had drum headlights. Perhaps more like Perry's Hupmobile. Nice observation.

Perhaps I should put all the identification problems I find in this thread, rather than start a new topic each time ?

This one might not be much of a puzzle. Clear view of the car, notes say, "Ames Sheep Ranch, Montaña, 1917".

Looks like a Cadillac, although I am not sure the year or model, maybe 1914? Cadillac experts?

Looks a bit like this 1914 Model 30, photo taken from the interweb.

I agree with you Tad. '14 or '15 perhaps. The electric lights, new for '13 are definitely Cadillac. They are very unique.

Mr. Eagle, those lights are definitely striking. I was waiting for you to reply as I knew you would be able to add important insight.
I will continue the thread with another mystery touring if anyone can solve it (photo is not mine, lifted from the internet).

That's a good one Tad. I don't recognize it so far. Several are close but not a match.
"...the board goes back."
(Hugh Downs, Concentration)

I may start a new thread of some mystery cars for fun, rather than hijack Mr. Bingham's.

No need, Tad. You're very welcome to use this thread if you wish. Looking forward to more mystery !!

Many thanks Mr. Bingham, the last touring posted was a 1918 Empire Model 50. Attached is a photo of the only current survivor I have yet seen.

Next we have this sedan, very unique windshield.

Can I play too?

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that C.R. Patterson standing beside one of his Patterson-Greenfield chassis? No idea about the year though.

Absolutely, the more the merrier.
Yes it is Tad, the first Patterson automobile, the Patterson-Greenfield, rolled off the line on September 23, 1915.
Good eye.

I agree, it’s quite fun and keeps the names of these long lost marques and inventors alive. Thank you for the clarification Mr. Eagle, and thank you Mr. Cheshire for joining in!

I really enjoy seeing the odd rarities. They are often amazing examples of progress. Thanks to all of you for participating ! I'm not good at this game, but I love it ! Tad, the Empire is magnificent. Glad there is a survivor !! As usual, I haven't a clue on the sedan. Mighty interesting !

It certainly is Mr. Bingham, the car sold recently although I do not know who its new owner is.

I’ll give a hint on the sedan for any interested, this car quickly began losing buyers due to its supposed drinking habits.

Tad that is Fredrick Douglass Patterson C.R. was his Father.
They were good looking and I would love to find one.

Sedan? Wild guess: Marmon.

I had never seen an Empire car. But I have seen an Empire tractor that was made in Philadelphia in 1946. I wonder if they are related.

Mr. Cheshire, thank you for sharing, I recognized the photo from an article I read about him and assumed he was pictured. I agree it’s a beautiful Machine!

Last mystery sedan I posted was a Mitchell Model F Sedan, either a 1920 or a 1921. Mitchell was a decently popular make until they introduced their new swept-back body style with the Model F, which earned them the unfortunate name "drunken Mitchell".

The swept back look was all the rage in 1933-34. After mocking the first Chrysler Airflow models, the public bought similar cars by the hundreds of thousands in the mid to late 1930s. Then Hudson (again) showed the rest how to build a modern car. Today, everyone drives a hatchback egg or a 4X4 truck set 3 feet off the ground, and they all hoot at the "Smart" car driver. What will the next fad be? Anyone's guess is as good as anyone else's. We may see a stampede to Safe-T capsule cabin electric cars with 4 legs, no wheels, and sensor "eyes" on flexible stalks.

TXGOAT2 wrote: ↑

Thu Apr 21, 2022 8:43 am

. . . "Smart" . . . 4 legs, no wheels, and sensor "eyes" . . .

I have three ! They're great !! (Now I'll brace for a wave of sophomoric comments by those who don't know which end the oats go in, all focused on the scatological. )

Thanks for the Mitchell I. D. , Pat ! And good comments on "style".

Oats? Haven't you heard it's Whiskey for my men, Beer for my horses!

Over the past fifty years, I've owned eight horses, and rode or worked a dozen more. At some point with each one, some wag would suggest, "hey ! Horses like beer don't they ?" And so offer a brewski to the equines present. Some sniffed and turned away, others when forced with a "drenching" primptly spit it out and made faces. I have heard of ponies that would share your beer, but I've yet to encounter one. I do like the song, though !!

Rich, I had a Shetland pony as a child (rescued by I and my Dad from Slipper Foot) He would not have anything to do with Dad's beer but don't go near him with a YooHoo chocolate drink. I miss Tarzan

You can sure get attached to the good ones. Yup. One thing the ponies like is sugar and sweet things ! Here's Babe's opinion of beer !

I miss my horse. He was a pain in the A$$ but a joy to have around every day. He was 36 last spring when we had to put him down. I still have young horses here in the summer on pasture but no more wintering them for me.

Photo is dated 1905, but you know how often notes like that may be wrong. The occupants of the car were identified, not the make or model of the car. Claims to be the first automobile in Salmon, Idaho.

Looks a lot like this 1904 Peerless "Type 8", maybe a match?

I imagine the instructor with the gallon hat saying "Now driver, be Very gentle with that clutch "

Many similarities Tad, I'd say you nailed it. Anyone else ?

I am sure you are right. Nice work. That's a tough one.
I had to look closely at the radiator to frame mounts to be sure. That and the rear fender curve convinced me.
Thanks
Rich

Here's a fun one proving not all speedsters were Model Ts. Could be a tough ine to identify, although proximity to the Saxon dealership could be a clue ?

Most likely a cone clutch... it would take finesse to avoid putting the peanut gallery in the road.

It is a Saxon. They were a funny little car. That radiator and hood are typical of them. This shows some details of one.
https://forums.aaca.org/topic/371033-19 ... nt=2296482

Their hood and radiator look a bit like a model T, if an elephant sat on one.

Not too puzzling, except perhaps for the year model ? Photo note says "Challis, Ida. 1920".

I'm guessing ~1920 Buick.

That's another charming photo Rich. It's a Buick similar to the one we looked at at the top of this page. I believe the license plate is a 1920 as the photo implies. "IDA" was first used above the year on the plates in '20 rather than the whole word "IDAHO". Then again in '22, '23 and '24.
I couldn't tell what year as what I can see is pretty similar for several years back. We have enjoyed Challis many times in old cars. One of my favorite stories involved a 1918 Dodge that developed a wheel wobble just before arriving there. He made it to a filling station with a small garage bay and they determined it's wheel bearing had failed.
"How in the world do I find another wheel bearing in Challis, Idaho?" the owner mourned.
About ten minutes later a local appeared delighted to see the old Dodge.
"I'm restoring one just like that." he smiled from ear to ear.
It turned out that he had good wheel bearings and lent one for the car to finish the tour. It was happily returned afterwards.
Just my 15 minutes of Challis.
Rich

What a great memory, Rich !! It's what makes touring in old cars memorable!
Thanks for the note on the plate.

Not a clue. Probably European, no place nor date. This feller looks plumb satisfied with his machine !

That thing looks pretty capable. Looks like a motorcycle engine... has pedals... maybe an early factory trike?

I believe it's a 1900 De Dion Bouton Tricycle much like this one;
https://www.mecum.com/lots/LV0120-40295 ... -tricycle/
"....one that laid the foundation of both the automobile and motorcycle industries."
and this:
https://www.heroesmotors.com/collection ... n-tricycle
"It features a 2.75 HP motor and all correct and original mechanical details. It is very likely the finest De Dion-Bouton available in the world, and yes, there is an enthusiastic global collector community. There will be no regrets on a historic machine like this, as this De Dion-Bouton is the real deal and a simply terrific machine. $250,000.00"
"The De Dion-Bouton tricycle was the most successful motor vehicle in Europe from 1897 until 1901."
Wikipedia
(French)

Cuthbert Maddox, Saddlestring, Wyo., May 10, 1898 after reading an article in the "Chugwater Intelligencer" :

"Reckon I'd like to git me one o' them Frenchie Dyin' Buttons fer the ranch. Be mighty handy on the bed ground durin' calving."

The Butter Krust Bread bakery had quite a fleet of delivery vehicles ! Year ? Make? Are they all the same ?

Trying to find information on the Butter Krust trucks I found that this bakery was from all over the USA.

Rich, the first three in your picture are Studebakers about 1915 or 1916. The next two are like the ones Perry shows. I don't recognize them so far.
Perry's second photo is a White. Maybe around 1927.
Rich

I wonder if those high-wheelers are International Harvester ? Thanks, Rich !!
Dennis, thanks for the info on "Butter Krust Bread" and the updated trucks.

Some Internationals and REOs had a similar radiator shape but these hoods are much longer. Apparently Butter Krust Bread started business in 1915 so the Studebakers were fairly new. The high wheelers must have been used vehicles at that time. I considered foreign makes but not likely in Sunbury Pennsylvania.

I see that, now. Yup. Much longer hoods. Any thoughts on the third van in line ? It appears to be quite different from the new Studebakers.

You looked closer than I did. It's bumper, headlight and front fender made me think it was like the two Studebakers. A folding windshield and beaded rear fender are good clues but not too much else is visible.
More to think about .

RM Auctions had this 1907 Chase Canopy Express Truck ta auction in 2010. It looks more like the last two than anything I can find. There is not a lot about the case trucks and I don't see many like it. the hood looks a bit longer but I don't think it really is. Even has the strap for the hood.
two cylinder air cooled.
https://rmsothebys-cache.azureedge.net/ ... d7308d.jpg

I think the third truck has a flat dash like a '13-'14 model T. Yup. Nothing much to see, other than I'm pretty sure it's not a new Studebaker.

Rich, I think you nailed it with the Chase truck. Earmark details are the same, only difference I can see is it appears the bread trucks are a longer wheelbase chassis, perhaps higher power and/or rated for heavier loads than the green one you showed us ?

"Chase" what a great name for a high-wheeler truck !!

No date, no location. I doubt if there's enough showing to be able to identify this very early horseless carriage, but it's an interesting picture.

It's one of the first White Steam cars Rich. About 1900 Or maybe you prefer this one: "This car was considered the most advanced American automobile of 1902. It far outperformed other steam and electric cars and was generally preferred for its silence, smoothness and reliability."
conceptcarz.com

My clue as to the make of the car was the vent tube behind the seat. This shows it above the steam generator. The two cylinders are easily seen here too. I believe the two pumps are for water pressure and fuel pressure. https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=de4ebd1d ... zcHg&ntb=1
Models A and B were built between 1900 and 1902.
Rich

I though this appropriate here for any who have time to read it. It's from an April 1940 HCCA Gazette.

Thanks for that, Rich !! Not only for the ID but the wonderful HCCA article from 1940. That really had me going, as I recognized the name Rollin White (1820-1894) as the gunsmith who patented breech-loading cartridge firearms. Obviously not the genius behind the first White steam car ! I find Thomas White, who established the White Sewing Machine Co., had a son named Rollin, who used a corner of the factory to assemble his first steam car. Now I wonder if there isn't a close family connection between the gunsmith White, and the sewing machine / automotive Whites ! ?!? Anyone ?

A toepedo ? 1911 ? 1912 ? RHD ??

Feller looks like he's all tangled up between the steering wheel and multiple top bows.

That looks like the Oilzum guy.

I was quick to think it a Torpedo, but now I believe it is a Flanders Model 20.

Nice work Tad. It definitely is a Flanders. It had me fooled as it is so similar to a '12 'T' Torpedo. The cowl and windshield rods nail it. They also used that 4-bow top.
Good work.
I went back and looked at CudaMan's just to see it again. What neat cars they are.
Rich

I agree Mr. Eagle, his work and updates are nice to see.

Here is another machine to ID, I was excited to find this photo from the Detroit Library.

Ah, Yes, the one cylinder Brush. Not often seen in the closed car version. The coil springs are a giveaway.
This gives a good look at the wooden front axle. The frame is also wood.
https://t5tzmwr1s0-flywheel.netdna-ssl. ... -Brush.jpg
More detail photos of a Runabout here:
https://thevaultms.com/inventory/brush-model-bc/
AACA has a Brush group. Here is a link to it for anyone who has more interest:
https://forums.aaca.org/forum/126-brush-automobiles/

I think we got our __________ stuck real good this time !!

No date no place. Great looking side curtains !!

Mr. Eagle, thank you for the Brush links. I was excited to find the photo of a closed cab Brush, I did not know they existed.

Mr. Bingham, that is a tough one but it may be a pre 1920 Mitchell. They are hard to find photos of.

Tad, I believe you nailed it ! The photo is not good enough resolution to read the script on the radiator. All the salient details agree with Mitchell. Thank you both for the comparison pix !

Thank you for the opportunity Mr. Bingham!
Here is another mystery machine. I am not trying to look clever with this one, I really have not yet been able to identify it.

That car is the "Cussalot" That's right everytime you try to start it ...you cuss a lot

Tad, not that it's a requisite on this thread, but I have never yet posted a puzzle I've known the answer to !

I hope someone can identify the "Cussalot" - what a wonderful beast that is !!
Perhaps European ?!?

Nice ID on the Mitchell Tad.
I think you have found a Panhard et Levassor. 1900 to 1902 maybe. Sunbeam, De Dietrich and others had the coils out in the air and little lid on top but Panhard used the similar hood and trim. I looked at a lot of them and there certainly were differences in louvers, knobs and sizes. I'm not sure they made two alike.
This one is missing the straps over the coil mountings. Most had them in brass.
The foreign makes are quite a puzzle to me.
Thanks
Rich

Here are a couple more Panhards to show the variations.

Well done, Rich !! These earliest cars are fascinating. I love the looks of a "fuzzy radiator"

I'm guessing that with the muddy road conditions of the period that those radiator fins got plugged up with mud and caused over heating issues.

Thank you much Mr. Eagle. I never would have thought to look at machines from the Old World.

Here is another mystery touring, this one comes from the hills of my home state!

Away down South? Maybe 1919.

"Away down south in DIXIE!" (Dixie Flyer) Mr. Eagle at it again. I have read that in 1923 Associated Motors bought Dixie Flyer and rebadged them as National. Anyone happen to know any other brands under "Associated Motors"?

There was the Sperling. It is pretty well unremembered.

Mr. Eagle, that's a shame about the Sperling. I could find little online about it, but I like its tall hood.

Here is a glimpse in an old garage near me, while working out a deal for the 1915 runabout I spied the old Rambler. I was told it is a 1902, this is the only photo I took with it in the background, does it look like the real thing? Or more likely a replica? From the photos I can find of real Ramblers this one doesn't look quite right. But it has wooden wheels and a wooden body.

Thanks Mr. Glahn.
I would guess the Rambler is a replica. It looks like it's about 3/4 scale and the hood front doesn't slant back as much as the real thing.
I watched our friend Joe resurrect this 1903 Rambler. It is on my trailer as purchased. He also allowed me to cover the top for him on bows he made himself. This shows it's height compared to a Model T. It was such a pleasure to watch Joe put it together over a period of years while I was building my YPC bus and some other cars. He was brilliant in finding things for it over the phone before the internet. He stumbled on a brand new body made 8 years before for another guy who backed out of the deal. The price was a bargain by then. Having others working these projects certainly kept me on track much like this Forum does now.
Thanks for bringing it up.
Rich

Mr. Eagle, thank you for the story and pictures! That's what I feared about the Rambler, it also has a steering wheel not a tiller.
If I buy the runabout I will document its resurrection on the forum.

Here's a fun "action" shot. No place given, photo represented as 1910. The car seems to me it's later than that, but what do I know ?? I sure don't know what make.

1912 Cadillac?

It's a little tough with the radiator obscured. However I believe it is a 1914 Cartercar. The windshield support mounts and the cowl lights seem to match this one as well as the bulbous cowl. Here are more pictures of details:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1914- ... r-touring/

Nailed it... again. I don't see how the friction drive could have handled wet/muddy conditions, and I'd think oil leakage from the engine would also give trouble. Other than that, it would have been great. I can't tell if the guy in the picture is demonstrating the car's ability to climb with a full load, or if he's stuck at the bottom of the hill with a slipping friction drive. Some early tractors had similar friction drives, so I suppose it could work well under some conditions.

This was close to the last cars they made. They ceased production early in 1915. I imagine they got heavier each year and that caused problems. This discussion gives some insight.
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=34c73d45 ... VyLw&ntb=1

Contrast the 1914 to this 1907 2-cylinder Cartercar. It has been on several west coast HCCA one and two cylinder tours and gone through a few owners.