Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
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Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I have recently bought a 1930 Triumph Super 7 car that has been off the road for 22 years. I now have it driving but I have a vibration.
I think its the drive shaft (check the video link) so that's away being checked, straightened and balanced etc.
The car has a drive tube from the diff halfway up the car and then a solid drive shaft about half a meter long with a flexi universal joint disc at each end.
The question is should I remove these two discs and swap their positions plus turn them over so the load will be turning in the opposite direction.
They look to be in sound condition.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/AX2MlwojRtE
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129573
I think its the drive shaft (check the video link) so that's away being checked, straightened and balanced etc.
The car has a drive tube from the diff halfway up the car and then a solid drive shaft about half a meter long with a flexi universal joint disc at each end.
The question is should I remove these two discs and swap their positions plus turn them over so the load will be turning in the opposite direction.
They look to be in sound condition.
Thanks
https://youtu.be/AX2MlwojRtE
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129573
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I have no specific experience with these in an automotive driveline, but I'd be inclined to leave them as-is, unless quality replacements are available, in which case I'd replace them. Similar joints were used for years on US steering column shafts, and they would often fail. I've had several that looked good fail due to decay of the flex material. I have had experience with them on heavy duty rotary brush mower drivelines, and they are a common trouble item in that application.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I would assume since it has been sitting all these years maybe the rubber has gotten stiff from sitting? If it’s not obviously bad I would run it. It might loosen up and work it self out. Be careful, be easy, check often. Results may vary. Interesting design. Looks like you could make one
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Topic author - Posts: 172
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks guys.
The outfit I sent the drive shaft to said some older American cars also used this system. They do offer making a modern driveshaft with uni joints and eliminate this system altogether so I'll wait until I find out the cost but it is nice to keep it stock.
I was wondering also if they had gone stiff from sitting so long and was hoping they might flex again over time but there is too much vibration to drive without causing damage elsewhere.
I had also thought of soaking them in oil or something that would soften them but besides the mess while driving it may weaken them also?
But you have to remember its a small car, it's a light car and only 7 hp (although the records state they had a max speed of 50 mph).
I'm used to driving model T's so 25 - 30 mph is enough for me but it's simply too bad to ignore.
Did you check the video of the shaft going? I'm hoping that is the culprit.
Thanks
The outfit I sent the drive shaft to said some older American cars also used this system. They do offer making a modern driveshaft with uni joints and eliminate this system altogether so I'll wait until I find out the cost but it is nice to keep it stock.
I was wondering also if they had gone stiff from sitting so long and was hoping they might flex again over time but there is too much vibration to drive without causing damage elsewhere.
I had also thought of soaking them in oil or something that would soften them but besides the mess while driving it may weaken them also?
But you have to remember its a small car, it's a light car and only 7 hp (although the records state they had a max speed of 50 mph).
I'm used to driving model T's so 25 - 30 mph is enough for me but it's simply too bad to ignore.
Did you check the video of the shaft going? I'm hoping that is the culprit.
Thanks
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I thought of soaking in oil also. If you do use a water based oil. it should not break down the rubber. I like soy bean oil. We extrude it on the farm so the oil is in abundance and Iam always looking for uses for it. But if you can find a replacement that would be great! Keep us posted! It would also be a treat to see a picture of your car
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Topic author - Posts: 172
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Sounds a good idea if I can find some soya at the right price.
Here is some pics
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129593
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129594
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129595
Thanks
Here is some pics
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129593
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129594
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129595
Thanks
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Hey nice wheels! Looks great
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I'd be leery of putting oil on those. They are probably cotton fabric and natural rubber. Petroleum oil would probably destroy them. If they're anywhere near as old as the car, both the rubber and the fabric are probably decayed. You may find that they aren't contributing to the vibration. If they are, they'll probably have to be rebuilt or replaced, perhaps with material sourced from tire sidewalls or flat belting. You might try putting lanolin on them, then wiping it off. I doubt if it would help, but it might not hurt. You have an item that is constructed of material that is very similar to a tire carcass, and If they are very old, the rubber/fabric portions are probably no more amenable to rehabilitation than would be a tire produced many decades ago. If any club support is available for the car, someone may have suggestions on how to deal with these parts. I'd expect they were a problem back in the car's heyday, and I'd think all surviving original examples. even NOS, would be unfit for on-road use.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Nice little car !
If the car has been parked all these years, the rubber/canvas discs have probably sagged and hardened, like old tyres do over the years. From the video i can see the shaft running off center, most likely not because it is bent but because the 'flexible' discs have sagged.
If you can't buy new ones, replacements can be made using the old hardware and new rubber from for instance transport belting, be sure to get everything centered and lined up or the new ones will vibrate as much as the old ones
If the car has been parked all these years, the rubber/canvas discs have probably sagged and hardened, like old tyres do over the years. From the video i can see the shaft running off center, most likely not because it is bent but because the 'flexible' discs have sagged.
If you can't buy new ones, replacements can be made using the old hardware and new rubber from for instance transport belting, be sure to get everything centered and lined up or the new ones will vibrate as much as the old ones
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Topic author - Posts: 172
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks Guys,
The car has been restored maybe 1977 as that's when the registration was renewed and new number plates issued. But due to deceased estate sale I haven't been able to get any history (so far) so maybe the discs were replaced then? But it has sat all this century and maybe they stiffen up and set in a shape when not being spun on a regular basis.
There is probably a company that makes these joints but no luck so far.
If and when the engineering firm gets back to me (covid staff issues), hopefully next few days I will know more. If the shaft is bent or out of balance (looks like that in the video but as you say it could be the flexi joints causing that wobble) I will try refitting and see how that looks.
Then maybe swapping the location of the joints and turning over next.
Then looking for a replacement material but that will have to be drilled perfectly or that will cause a wobble.
OR lastly just get them to make me a new modern style drive shaft with uni joints at each end and problem solved.
I guess I can play with the options and try to keep the cost down.
The car has been restored maybe 1977 as that's when the registration was renewed and new number plates issued. But due to deceased estate sale I haven't been able to get any history (so far) so maybe the discs were replaced then? But it has sat all this century and maybe they stiffen up and set in a shape when not being spun on a regular basis.
There is probably a company that makes these joints but no luck so far.
If and when the engineering firm gets back to me (covid staff issues), hopefully next few days I will know more. If the shaft is bent or out of balance (looks like that in the video but as you say it could be the flexi joints causing that wobble) I will try refitting and see how that looks.
Then maybe swapping the location of the joints and turning over next.
Then looking for a replacement material but that will have to be drilled perfectly or that will cause a wobble.
OR lastly just get them to make me a new modern style drive shaft with uni joints at each end and problem solved.
I guess I can play with the options and try to keep the cost down.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Hi Kevin, that almost looks like a 'home made' joint. (no - not that type!)
I pretty sure that there were no galvanised parts in British cars of the era like the 'tabs' in the joint in the picture.
That is conveyor belt fabric. No amount of soaking in anything will penetrate that to make any difference in less than 100 years.....
I have made replacement joints for tractors with the same stuff. Cutting it perfectly round is a challenge and results in the 'hairy' appearance of the edges in your picture. It may not be a perfectly 'true' circle.
At the speed it turns I would not imagine it would give much vibration.
Cheers
Adrian
I pretty sure that there were no galvanised parts in British cars of the era like the 'tabs' in the joint in the picture.
That is conveyor belt fabric. No amount of soaking in anything will penetrate that to make any difference in less than 100 years.....
I have made replacement joints for tractors with the same stuff. Cutting it perfectly round is a challenge and results in the 'hairy' appearance of the edges in your picture. It may not be a perfectly 'true' circle.
At the speed it turns I would not imagine it would give much vibration.
Cheers
Adrian
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks Adrian,
That makes sense and might explain the wobble. The shaft is in MS Coombes in Chch which apparently are very good IF they ever start on it.
Excuses...frustrating.
I'm interested to see the quote to make/supply and normal driveshaft. I'm sure a small jap import tractor pto shaft could be modified although they are only designed to run at lower rpm, whether 30 mph in the Triumph spins a shaft faster than a pto mower I dont know.
Thanks again.
That makes sense and might explain the wobble. The shaft is in MS Coombes in Chch which apparently are very good IF they ever start on it.
Excuses...frustrating.
I'm interested to see the quote to make/supply and normal driveshaft. I'm sure a small jap import tractor pto shaft could be modified although they are only designed to run at lower rpm, whether 30 mph in the Triumph spins a shaft faster than a pto mower I dont know.
Thanks again.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I have a Kubota compact diesel tractor with a shaft driven belly mower. The mower cuts a 56" swath and can load the 23 HP 3-cyliner engine. I believe the PTO runs about 550 RPM. The shaft has 2 forged U joints with needle bearings and a nice splined slip joint. I'd think it could handle 25-30 HP and substantial torque. The tractor is a Kubota B-2320, about a 2010 model.
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Topic author - Posts: 172
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks Pat.
Update - Just spoken to the engineering firm and the drive shaft is straight so looks like its the drive flanges.
I found an Austin 7 one on ebay and it looks identical to mine, Adrian what do you think? It has the galvanized brackets like you spotted on mine
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115374568816 ... SwXwBf3jZV
I asked the engineering firm how much to make a drive shaft, $1800 to $2000, funny. That aint happening!
I'll be buying a couple of new Austin 7 units if they are the same size.
Thanks
Update - Just spoken to the engineering firm and the drive shaft is straight so looks like its the drive flanges.
I found an Austin 7 one on ebay and it looks identical to mine, Adrian what do you think? It has the galvanized brackets like you spotted on mine
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115374568816 ... SwXwBf3jZV
I asked the engineering firm how much to make a drive shaft, $1800 to $2000, funny. That aint happening!
I'll be buying a couple of new Austin 7 units if they are the same size.
Thanks
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Hi Kevin, that looks like a 'repop' as well.
If it is 'on center' there is no reason it won't work. The one you have may well be OK too, I am not sure it is the cause o the wobble.
If it is 'on center' there is no reason it won't work. The one you have may well be OK too, I am not sure it is the cause o the wobble.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I unbolted the couplings and I think I found the cause. If I can find a couple of new Austin 7 ones (if they are the same) I'm sure it will be good.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129886
download/file.php?mode=view&id=129886
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Research shows the Austin 7 ones are much smaller.
One UK supplier told me they are made in Taiwan on special order for the Austin guys. By the looks of it they are made by the same outfit but tracking them down might be hard.
Might try soaking these wobbly ones in oil, they aren't any use as they are.
Kevin
One UK supplier told me they are made in Taiwan on special order for the Austin guys. By the looks of it they are made by the same outfit but tracking them down might be hard.
Might try soaking these wobbly ones in oil, they aren't any use as they are.
Kevin
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Kevin, as others have pointed out, soaking in oil won't do any good, it might even make for disaster !
Oil will attack the rubber and creep into the canvas layers causing separation between the rubber and canvas.
Do NOT Soak in oil, be smart and make new ones from conveyor belt material, it may take a few tries to get it right, but it is the cheapest and best way.
try to find someone or a workshop that has a mill with an indexing table ( the shop that checked your shaft probably has one) it will make the work a lot easier !
Good luck on your progress !
Oil will attack the rubber and creep into the canvas layers causing separation between the rubber and canvas.
Do NOT Soak in oil, be smart and make new ones from conveyor belt material, it may take a few tries to get it right, but it is the cheapest and best way.
try to find someone or a workshop that has a mill with an indexing table ( the shop that checked your shaft probably has one) it will make the work a lot easier !
Good luck on your progress !
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Yes, they are not 'hard' to make, just fiddle getting the holes in the correct position. A VERY sharp blade helps clean up the edges.
You could try different thicknesses of material in case thick material is too stiff.
In making them for tractors I use a combination of hack saw for big cuts and a sharp (strong) blade to round it up.
Holes by a hole punch tool - position it carefully on a hard wood block and hit firmly with a hammer.
I bolt them together using large heavy washers where those riveted plates are on your picture.
Takes a while but could be faster and cheaper than ordering from England.
You could try different thicknesses of material in case thick material is too stiff.
In making them for tractors I use a combination of hack saw for big cuts and a sharp (strong) blade to round it up.
Holes by a hole punch tool - position it carefully on a hard wood block and hit firmly with a hammer.
I bolt them together using large heavy washers where those riveted plates are on your picture.
Takes a while but could be faster and cheaper than ordering from England.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
PM me Kevin, I may have some material lying around I could send you
Cheers
Cheers
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks Adrian I will do.
Well I'm doing what some of you say not to do and the reason is they are of no use the way they are and are basically rubbish except for a pattern.
I've tracked an old engineer down that can make me a set of new ones or make me a drive shaft from an old car like a Morris minor etc for a fraction of the first 2k quote.
He said when these flexi couplings are parked unused for extended times the weight of the drive shaft pulling down changes the shape of the coupling plus they go hard over the years and set in that shape.
I'm currently waiting for the drive shaft to be returned and will then send it to him to review and offer options.
In the meantime I am soaking the 2 couplings in new 30/40 and after awhile I am going to simmer them on the potbelly, yip thats right heat them up in warm oil to see if they soften. Then I plan to do the same in clean water and then see if they become pliable. If they do i might refit them to the car and run it in top gear on jacks to see if the vibration goes. Like I said they are junk anyway but maybe a good cooking will wake them up lol.
I will still send up the shaft and either get newbies or driveshaft made before I drive it on the road.
Well I'm doing what some of you say not to do and the reason is they are of no use the way they are and are basically rubbish except for a pattern.
I've tracked an old engineer down that can make me a set of new ones or make me a drive shaft from an old car like a Morris minor etc for a fraction of the first 2k quote.
He said when these flexi couplings are parked unused for extended times the weight of the drive shaft pulling down changes the shape of the coupling plus they go hard over the years and set in that shape.
I'm currently waiting for the drive shaft to be returned and will then send it to him to review and offer options.
In the meantime I am soaking the 2 couplings in new 30/40 and after awhile I am going to simmer them on the potbelly, yip thats right heat them up in warm oil to see if they soften. Then I plan to do the same in clean water and then see if they become pliable. If they do i might refit them to the car and run it in top gear on jacks to see if the vibration goes. Like I said they are junk anyway but maybe a good cooking will wake them up lol.
I will still send up the shaft and either get newbies or driveshaft made before I drive it on the road.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Don't get in a situation where a failed flex joint could allow the shaft to thrash around and damage the car.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Thanks Pat,
I will keep that in mind. Ive had the brew stewing for a couple of hours with no signs of it getting softer...yet.
I will keep that in mind. Ive had the brew stewing for a couple of hours with no signs of it getting softer...yet.
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Kevin, something bothers me here about your thread;
You ask for advice, there are some really experienced people on this forum, so even if the car is not a T, you get some good expert tips on what to do, and you get warned by several knowledgable people about some of the not so sound options, i.e. soaking the rubber discs in oil, but still you persist in doing just that, and on top you suggest running them at high speed on jackstands.
WHY did you put up the question in the first place ?
Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest
You ask for advice, there are some really experienced people on this forum, so even if the car is not a T, you get some good expert tips on what to do, and you get warned by several knowledgable people about some of the not so sound options, i.e. soaking the rubber discs in oil, but still you persist in doing just that, and on top you suggest running them at high speed on jackstands.
WHY did you put up the question in the first place ?
Sorry for the rant, had to get it off my chest
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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Topic author - Posts: 172
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Leo why dont you read the thread from the start again instead of your rant.
It started off asking questions and the story evolved as more info come to hand and engineer reports come in. I have appreciated the input and thanked people for their feedback along the way, it has been an interesting learning process.
I have made it perfectly clear that the 2 couplings are junk and will not be used and I intend to either get 2 new ones made or get a driveshaft made.
I then said I was going to experiment with the old parts before they are disposed off.
If the fact I am going soak/warm them in oil causes you grief Tough!, simply Stop looking at this thread.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=130087
It started off asking questions and the story evolved as more info come to hand and engineer reports come in. I have appreciated the input and thanked people for their feedback along the way, it has been an interesting learning process.
I have made it perfectly clear that the 2 couplings are junk and will not be used and I intend to either get 2 new ones made or get a driveshaft made.
I then said I was going to experiment with the old parts before they are disposed off.
If the fact I am going soak/warm them in oil causes you grief Tough!, simply Stop looking at this thread.
download/file.php?mode=view&id=130087
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Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
It is not my grief Kevin, it is your car and you can do as you please with it, if things go south while 'experimenting', it is your grief.
Good luck on your experiments, and be safe.
Good luck on your experiments, and be safe.
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer !
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
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- Posts: 6411
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: McNallen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
- Location: Graham, Texas
- MTFCA Number: 51486
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
An old auto glass guy around here used to put lanolin-based hand cleaner on dry, sun-baked windshield rubber gaskets to soften them. A similar product today is sold under the name "GoJo". I think most any of the cream-type mechanic's waterless hand cleaners would work. They're a combination of lanolin, soap, and scent. Some may be a vegetable oil base. He would apply the product every day for a few days, and the hardened rubber would soften right up.
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Topic author - Posts: 172
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:58 am
- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Weeds
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Depot Hack, 1927 Coupe & 1914 Runabout
- Location: New Zealand
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
I'm pleased to say the soaking in new 20/50 engine oil (what I had on hand) for 24 hrs and then heating the same mix for 5 hours and left to cool in the oil overnight done the job perfectly. The couplings are back to their correct shape, pliable but still firm enough.
Once refitted and tested the vibration is 90% gone which gives me encouragement that a modern style driveshaft should do the trick and be worth the outlay.
Thanks for your feedback guys.
Once refitted and tested the vibration is 90% gone which gives me encouragement that a modern style driveshaft should do the trick and be worth the outlay.
Thanks for your feedback guys.
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- Posts: 6411
- Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: McNallen
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
- Location: Graham, Texas
- MTFCA Number: 51486
- Board Member Since: 2021
Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
You're a lucky man, it seems. I'd agree that a modern, all metal shaft is a good idea. I'd keep the old parts, but add a replacement shaft, keeping in mind that 2-piece shafts with multiple joints need to be correctly phased. I suspect that the rag joints were subject to vibration from the start to due to deflection in the rubber under load and inexact alignment.
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Topic author - Posts: 172
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:58 am
- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Weeds
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Depot Hack, 1927 Coupe & 1914 Runabout
- Location: New Zealand
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Probably right Pat. Rough gravel roads with pot holes plus short distance travel maybe a bit of vibration was the norm back in the day.
I'll update this post when I get a shaft made.
I'm side tracked at the moment about to swap engine/trans over in two of my T's and I need the Triumph mobile to allow the reshuffling.
Thanks
I'll update this post when I get a shaft made.
I'm side tracked at the moment about to swap engine/trans over in two of my T's and I need the Triumph mobile to allow the reshuffling.
Thanks
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Topic author - Posts: 172
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:58 am
- First Name: Kevin
- Last Name: Weeds
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Depot Hack, 1927 Coupe & 1914 Runabout
- Location: New Zealand
- Board Member Since: 2015
Re: Advice Please on flexi universal joint disc
Update - The oil soaked flexi mounts came up subtle and were 90% better and would be good enough a fix in some situations but I had a driveshaft made. I have also tracked down the original maker of the flexi joints and some of you were correct they were just home made from old conveyor belt material. I suspect they aren't exactly symmetrical.
Here is a link to the driveshaft fitted plus a pic of both units.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtDxmQx4mTE
download/file.php?mode=view&id=133280
Thanks
Here is a link to the driveshaft fitted plus a pic of both units.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtDxmQx4mTE
download/file.php?mode=view&id=133280
Thanks