You Get What You Pay For

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You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:36 am

Before going out for a T drive I topped off the gas at a local Walmart. The car took about 8 1/2 gallons. Within a mile after leaving the gas station, the engine would die when stopped at a red light. It just didn't seem to have the same power. I tried to adjust the carburetor but couldn't make it run smooth. I drove about 40 miles thinking there was trash in the carburetor. On the way home I decided to top off with premium gas, about 5 gallons worth. I couldn't believe the immediate improvement. The car idled smooth and the power was good top end. I'm not going to touch the carburetor.
Take it for what it's worth. For me it is another example of cheap inferior Walmart products.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am

...cheap inferior Walmart products

Some of their stuff is inferior, and some is fine.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:31 am

What kinda Model T do you drive that will hold 13 + gallons of gas - a speedster ???


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Adam » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:49 am

If it indeed was something noticeable with different grades of gas, you probably have more going on there than just “a problem with cheap gas”.

Back when E-85 was really cheap, myself and a couple friends would use it in our T’s. It ran pretty much the same as anything else except I had to open up the mixture control about 1/4 turn. It had the same power, you just used a little more. Normally I get about 20 mpg in my ‘24 touring but the E-85 seemed to get me about 16 mpg.

There are things that can be off a little in a carburetor that could make a more noticeable difference between fuel grades. The three biggest would be float level, plugged passages, and small vacuum leaks.

What carburetor do you have?

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:41 am

Gasoline is essentially a shared commodity, often stored in common containers until it is purchased by a major retailer. After that, the retailer treats the gas with a specific additive, thereby giving the fuel its brand identity. Top Tier gasoline was developed in 2004 to go beyond the minimum standard for detergent additives to better protect increasingly sophisticated engines from carbon buildup and deposits on the intake valves—which can result in a rough idle, ac
Top Tier Retailers
76, Aloha Petroleum, Amoco, ARCO, Beacon, BP, Breakaway, Break Time, Cenex, Chevron, CITGO, Conoco, Costco, CountryMark, Diamond Shamrock, Entec, Esso, Express Mart, Exxon, Fast Fuel, HFN, Hele, Holiday, Kwik Star, Irving, Kirkland Signature, Kwik Star, Kwik Trip, Marathon, Metro Petro, MFA, Mobil, Ohana Fuels, Phillips 66, PUMA, QT, Quik Trip, Road Ranger, Shamrock, Shell, Sinclair, Sunoco, SuperAmerica, SuperFuels, Texaco, Valero, Value America, Wow, and Win Win
Walmart doesn't sell TOP TIER gas. Available octane levels are regular, premium, and super. Walmart also sells diesel.
The gas company Walmart uses is Murphy USA. Murphy USA operates 1,474 (as of June 30, 2019) retail fueling stations in 26 US states. Over 1,100 sites are located near Walmart stores. As part of the company's new direction, more than 240 stations, also known as Murphy Express stores, are located independently.

NOT inferring that you pumped diesel just noticed the difference in the color of pump handles that BP uses. The use Green for Gas while others use Green for diesel
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by John Codman » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:49 am

I was thinking along the same line as Adam. Perhaps the tank truck mistakenly dropped E-85 in the regular tank. E-85 would throw the mixture way off; at 85% alcohol the T (or any gas engine) would require a much richer fuel/air mixture. Using premium fuel as opposed to regular will gain a Model T nothing.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by DHort » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:22 pm

We had that problem in Iowa one time. Diesel truck. Started filling the tank with the green handle stuff - it was gas. Luckily we had a spare tank and were able to get home on that. You would think they would be consistant across the country with fuel handles.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:40 pm

I drove over 40 mile therefore I was able to top off with premium {not from wall mart ] gas
after that it ran as good as it ever has ,although pump said 87 octane it had to be E 85 junk!!! or something less !!!!


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by DickC » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:14 pm

Adam--I would like to find a way to get close to 20 mpg. The best T I have gets 12-14 depending on the type of driving (hills, speed, etc). Most of mine, two others, get a solid 10-12 mpg. On another point, I had a problem after filling my Mustang 5.0 at a local dealer. Ran terrible for about 200 miles. Filled up with another dealer and the engine smoothed out. After that, I noticed that after a heavy rain the first dealer had the gas company's service truck there. This was noticed several times. My guess is that the dealer had a water leakage problem and the filters were not able to capture the water. I can't say for sure he had a problem but I do not get gas there anymore.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by DHort » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:27 pm

Adam rebuilt my engine for my 1920 Touring. 2 years ago I drove it from Milwaukee to Detroit and averaged 20-22mpg. He must be doing something right.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:47 pm

I have nothing to add to the "poor running" part of this thread other than to say that a Model T should be able to run on some pretty poor quality gas....I suspect the gas you buy from Murphy is of much higher quality than was was available back in the day, even if it isn't "top tier."

The above notwithstanding, I was not aware of the significance of "Top Tier" gasoline. After reading Frank's post, I did some research on "top tier" gas and may change my fuel preferences as a result. I always like it when I learn something new....thanks!
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Allan » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:37 pm

Dick, if you convert to using imperial gallons your mileage will improve. ;)

Allan from down under.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:34 pm

I would like to find a way to get close to 20 mpg.

That probably depends mostly on the condition of the engine and carburetor. I buy whatever gas is least expensive. In most places that's E-10 (E-85 has a lower price but is more expensive due to the lousy mileage). Occasionally the gas is Murphy, but usually is something else. I haven't noticed any difference among brands. In short drives around home with plenty of stop & go my mileage varies from 12 to 16 mpg. On trips I average 19 to 21 mpg.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 4:59 pm

RichJ wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:40 pm
I drove over 40 mile therefore I was able to top off with premium {not from wall mart ] gas
after that it ran as good as it ever has ,although pump said 87 octane it had to be E 85 junk!!! or something less !!!!
You know that they used to mix gas and kerosene back in the day, maybe you found the secret formula.
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by ModelTWoods » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:59 pm

I don't know how many states or parts of the U.S. where you can buy gasoline without alcohol added, but in the San Antonio area, which is not classified as a high pollution area (like Houston-Galveston and Dallas-Fort Worth) you can buy gasoline without alcohol blended into it. Its still regular grade, mind you, unless you pour some octane booster product in the tank with the gas, but at least you don't have to worry about the effects of alcohol on your carburetor and fuel components.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Chris Haynes » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:08 pm

Steve Jelf wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:16 am
...cheap inferior Walmart products

Some of their stuff is inferior, and some is fine.
Most is from China.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Dallas Landers » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:32 pm

On our local news tonight, gas station sold gas with 70% water. Dealing with many complaints.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by ModelT46 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:45 pm

I use gasoline that has no alcohol in my 1910 and my two 1931 Model As. I once had to fill up with 10% on my 1931 roadster and then drove out on the freeway. I could only get the A up to 30 miles an hour. Drove 45 miles then stopped for a few minutes. When I started the A again, it ran just fine. It was a very hot day and I assume there was vapor lock.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Susanne » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:50 pm

Dallas Landers wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:32 pm
On our local news tonight, gas station sold gas with 70% water. Dealing with many complaints.
They were just trying their hand a making their gasoline more, um, green... since algae is green, well... :lol:

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by TWrenn » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:40 pm

Seeing how this is such a long thread, due to my ADHD short attention span, I couldn't bear to read all the posts. So I'll just toss in my usual semi-worthless two cents. It's not uncommon for the "cheapie stations" to buy fuel from third, fourth and even fifth markets, so to speak. In other words, they pick up crap. Often we call it "barge fuel". Lots of times, that's exactly what it is. Fuel that's sat in a barge along some river waiting for someone to take it off their hands, at a reduced price, and the crap is turned to just that, crap.
For years, I was meticulous at keeping track of my MPG in my then '97 F150. Sams club fuel, typically 10 cents cheaper, always, and I do mean always, produced the worst fuel mileage of any. Usually 2-3 MPG LESS. Consistently. So there you have it. Buyer beware.

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You Get What You Pay For

Post by FreighTer Jim » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:07 pm

Bad gas is bad gas 🤔

Could be water in the fuel being delivered.
Could be water leaking into an underground storage tank.
Could be a bad filter at the pump.

It has nothing to do with the “ Walmart “ name.

All the tankers fill from the same distribution point.

Only the sign on the station is different.


FJ


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:22 pm

Walmart sources its gas from multiple retailers, often going for the lowest price. They used to source their gas from Murphy USA but stopped in 2016. Multiple suppliers often promotes inconsistencies in quality.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:09 am

Only the sign on the station is different.

Makes me think of Dad. He was a still operator for Shell, Pathfinder, and Union Oil for about forty years before he retired in 1965. He used to scoff at gasoline commercials. He said, "It all comes out of the same pipe." Not literally, of course, but regular gas from Signal, Polly, Gilmore, or Richfield were pretty much the same product. Some companies added dye for a special color.
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by DHort » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:34 am

I got a fiver in my pocket. How much can I get for my fiver?


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by John Codman » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:33 am

DickC wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:14 pm
Adam--I would like to find a way to get close to 20 mpg. The best T I have gets 12-14 depending on the type of driving (hills, speed, etc). Most of mine, two others, get a solid 10-12 mpg. On another point, I had a problem after filling my Mustang 5.0 at a local dealer. Ran terrible for about 200 miles. Filled up with another dealer and the engine smoothed out. After that, I noticed that after a heavy rain the first dealer had the gas company's service truck there. This was noticed several times. My guess is that the dealer had a water leakage problem and the filters were not able to capture the water. I can't say for sure he had a problem but I do not get gas there anymore.
I had the same issue at a then-new gas station in Millis, MA some years ago. That was the last time I bought gas there. As to Model T gas mileage - I really don't know how many miles my T will go on a gallon of gas, but my gut feeling is that it is in the 20 MPG range. I no longer fill it up because the gas sits too long. I have had fuel issues in the past and don't want to repeat them. I rarely have more then five gallons of gas in the T. Yesterday I completely drained the T's tank and this morning I am heading to a Shell station that sells Ethanol-free gas. I'm no expert, but the consensus of opinion it that Ethanol-free has a longer shelf life then gas mixed with Ethanol.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Susanne » Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:15 pm

I remember driving past the Chevron refinery in Richmond one evening years back and seeing a few different brands of tankers getting filled up there. Surprisingly to me it was the "cheapy" brands - 7-11, Acme oil, Thrifty Squirrel/Terrible Herbst, a couple "jobber's" tankers, but none of their own trucks. Driving back later that morning, at the same dock it was now all "Chevron" trucks. I was told that sure, they all pull up to the same docks, but it's not the same storage tanks those docks are being supplied with at any given time, and that the refinery can control which one is which down to the gallon.

I remember the old Beacon stations, you'd fill up with their "regular" and it unleashed the "can of marbles" detonation inside your motor, but the "Chevron" regular didn't unleash those same marbles... --shrug--


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:56 pm

Thanks for all replies.
I'll just add: I know I definitely pressed the 87 octane button. The car was in my trailer. I was returning from a full day of driving and filled my motor home. And since it wasn't busy Sunday morning, I decided to fill my T as well. The motor home used about 15 gallons to go about 90 miles, when, normally, I get 10 miles to the gallon (6.0 Chevy). I was surprised at how fast the gas gauge was dropping but figured it was because I was pushing it.
Then, four days later, I decided to take a ride and take my wife and granddaughter for lunch. As soon as I started out, I noticed that the T wasn't running right. Forty plus miles later, after checking for contamination, I decide to top it off with 93 octane. Within a mile of driving I couldn't believe the improved performance. I have two witnesses to back me up!!!
IT WAS CRAP GAS. I'll be desperate before I buy any fuel from Murphy/Walmart again. It's pretty bad when a T won't run on it! The only thing good from Walmart is their three or five-year free replacement batteries. Take them back within the warranty period and get a replacement. If you are lucky you'll get a few more years out of them. IF YOU ARE LUCKY.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:51 am

I'd. Like to edit post to. you DON'T get what you you pay for...
Extra thanks to Dave Tim John for your enlightening information!
Terry email forthcoming
Rich J


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:55 am

Also I ment to include Ed for enlightening info.

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From A Tanker Broker

Post by FreighTer Jim » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:18 am

I like to visit with folks.

Whether it is during pick up - drop off - or perhaps
at a truck stop or restaurant in my travels.

A few years ago - I was siting at a table in
truck stop next to a guy who was talking
on (3) different phones ( sometimes simultaneously ).

This went on for a few minutes - then suddenly stopped.

We started talking about things & I asked him
what he was doing on the phone ..... 🤔

He was a “ gas broker “ - he owned a few
tanker trucks - the drivers had filled and left
the distribution point and were headed to retail
gas stations to fill mostly underground tanks.

He was on the phone negotiating the highest
price for their load with various retail stations.

He was balancing the number of stops each
truck would make to dispense along with how
much that delivery would net him with profit.

The fewer stops at the highest price per gallon
was what he was trying to accomplish.

The inevitable question from me was .... 🤔

Since the trucks didn’t know which stations
they were delivering to - was retail gas and diesel
really just the same after all ?

He laughed - aside from additives put into
gas and diesel dispensed from his truck(s) at
certain stations - it is all the same because
it is all transferred from refineries in the same
bulk pipeline .... 💡

He did tell me never to fill at a station
where the tanks were being filled by a
tanker while the tanker was filling.

Whatever debris might be in the storage tank
was stirred up and suspended - it might find
it’s way past the dispenser pump filter into
the fuel storage tank in my vehicle.

I hold about 130 gallons of #2 diesel between
my factory tanks and the cross tank in my bed.

So I try to fill a near empty cross tank when
I can - my last (2) fills have been @ $2.79
a gallon in areas where #2 diesel is between
$2.99 and $3.39 a gallon.

20% of the time - I fill at Walmart or Murphy Express.

This morning I am in Pennsylvania along
the I-90 turnpike on my way to Connecticut
and it is averaging higher than that.

I add my own fuel performance enhancers
to my cross tank in my truck bed ... 😉


FJ


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by DickC » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:33 am

Allen from down under--I wish you had not said anything about buying gas in Imperial gallons. I today's world of product "repackaging" our domestic suppliers will see that and start using Imperial gallons and will will initially believe that we are getting a 15% deal!!!


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by bud delong » Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:59 pm

I think usually the trouble with gas is the condition of the tanks at the station?? Up north in the winter you can have trouble but if you get bad gas it will show up quickly and you will know where you bought it!! Down south you can go until you hit freezing before you might spot poor quality fuel! :D Bud.

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GULFTANE

Post by Novice » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:44 pm

Remember Gulftane. Sub regular gas? they sold back in the sixties. Gulf had three grades of gasoline. Gulftane. GoodGulf. and No Nox. Gulftane was Rott gut gasoline a cut above kerosene make a lawn mower run rough.


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:35 pm

Here in California, the state regulates the grade of fuel sold at the gas stations. It even varies according to what month of the year it is. There is the "Winter grade" and the "Summer grade". It is regulated to keep emissions down. As far as I know, none is leaded and all has a percentage of alcohol in it. I use the lowest grade in all my cars and they seem to run fine. The higher grades are for higher compression engines to keep them from pinging, but a standard T does not ping unless it is overheated or the spark is too advanced. The only problem I have had was on one tour when we stopped to fill up. There were two stations near each other and everyone who filled up at the station I used had trouble. The others didn't. I drained the sediment bulb and after that it ran ok. I think that station had some water in the tank.
Here I either use Sinclair for my dinosaur car or Shell which is across the street. Whichever has the lower price. Interestingly, on the main street of Alpine, the two stations have gas about 10 cents a gallon lower than the two on the highway interchange. We have the first interchange with gas stations, coming from the east for about 30 miles so they see the highway cars coming and the locals know where the price is lower!
Norm


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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by ModelTWoods » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:50 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Sat Feb 27, 2021 1:09 am
Only the sign on the station is different.

Makes me think of Dad. He was a still operator for Shell, Pathfinder, and Union Oil for about forty years before he retired in 1965. He used to scoff at gasoline commercials. He said, "It all comes out of the same pipe." Not literally, of course, but regular gas from Signal, Polly, Gilmore, or Richfield were pretty much the same product. Some companies added dye for a special color.
Decades ago, I was told by someone in the fuel business that regardless of what company name was on the tanker truck, that most, if not all, 18 wheeler tankers were loaded at the same fuel terminal, not at an individual company refinery. It must be true because I can count on my thumbs which companies have their own marked tankers. Most are delivered by generic brand delivery tankers.

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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:58 pm

...the locals know where the price is lower!

If you ever need gas in Needles, go to K Street and cross the bridge. It costs a LOT less on the Arizona side of the river. :)
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by RichJ » Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:55 am

After re-reading this thread I will definitely change my gas buying preferences. Apparently octane rating is very misleading!
Although it's been said that a T will run on practically anything, I put more 93 octane in (after another 60 miles of driving). It definitely ran an easy 45 mp/h on a 10+ mile run and was capable of doing more. But I'm not looking for more engine work. I'd rather drive.

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Steve Jelf
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:55 pm

But I'm not looking for more engine work. I'd rather drive.

As the geologists say, my sediments exactly. A Model T will run at 45 mph. It will also wear out faster than at 35.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: You Get What You Pay For

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:32 pm

A few years ago I gave some advanced flying instruction to a guy who delivered gasoline for a living. He said pretty much what others have said, that he picked up the gas at a location in central Michigan and drove it to a number of different branded stations. He said the only difference was which additives he put in for each brand when dumping it into their storage tanks.
He did tell me never to fill at a station where the tanks were being filled by a tanker while the tanker was filling.
I'll never buy gas at a station that is filling it's tanks from a truck for the same reason. I had a related experience years ago. I was getting ready to fly down to see my parents and the gas truck was filling the tanks at my airport. When the truck finished, I topped off and flew the hour trip to see my folks. We had dinner and when I went back to the airport I checked the wing tank sumps as one usually does as a pre-flight check. Between the two tanks I took more than a quart of water out....rocked the wings and got some more. I ran the engine for awhile and made some taxi runs up and down the runway before daring to attempt a takeoff. Can you imagine what would have happened if I had just lifted off when a slug of water made it's way to the carburetor?

Aircraft have drains at all the low points of the fuel system so you can check for water. Our T's have a drain on the bottom of the gascolator which allows you to check for water too. The shape of the bulb will collect some water and crud which is it's purpose. I wish modern cars had something similar.
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