Early Starters

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
Plankhill
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:04 pm
First Name: Brendan
Last Name: Doughty
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 16 , 21, 24, Touring , 24 Roadster, 26 Speedster
Location: Central Wisconsin
MTFCA Number: 15143

Early Starters

Post by Plankhill » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:47 pm

Does anyone know when Ford went from the one piece dust ring held on with a screw in front of the terminal stud to the split type held with a bolt and nut? McCalley's book shows a generator on page 277 with the early setup. The stud is not attached to the buss bar like the later ones. Pictures don't want to post today!


speedytinc
Posts: 3814
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Early Starters

Post by speedytinc » Wed Apr 21, 2021 4:22 pm

not sure what you mean be different stud/busbar. '19 T's have a lot of different features, that were probably cut to save money & deemed unnecessary.Like the 4 sleves to secure the ring gear. The 3/8" power stud & insulators are the same as later, from all the ones i have seen. More interesting though, is the felt seal to keep excessive oil out of the starter motor. The rear starter bushing is shorter & there is a snap ring grove & ring to retain the felt. Yes the brush cover is not adjustable & attaches with 1 or 2 #10 screws. I have seen early starters on early 20's also. I have no factory documentation.
I do recall some early drawings that show different than i have even seen in real life. Ill check Mccally tonite.


speedytinc
Posts: 3814
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2021 12:24 pm
First Name: john
Last Name: karvaly
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 14/15 wide track roadster. 23 touring, 27 roadster pickup, 20ish rajo touring
Location: orange, ca
MTFCA Number: 14383
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: Early Starters

Post by speedytinc » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:07 pm

As pictured, in mccally. Never seen them with tags, or mount screws @ 3 & 9 o clock.
I do have 2 different covers. 1 style is a bit thinner, has 4 thin slots 1/2 way thru with 1 mounting hole @ top in slot. 2nd style , a bit thicker, 4 slots, with 1 hole @ 12 & 6 in slots.
used on 19's & early 20.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3285
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Early Starters

Post by DanTreace » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:22 pm

Bruce's C-D lists the two styles of P/N 5101 Cover Band, the first is Factory # 1801A, in the Price list of Parts, Mar 1920, says for 1919-1920

The second design is Factory #1801C, and this # is in all the later lists. Same band is used for the generator .

Bruce's list below says the first style used 1919-1921.
578BFAF3-91AA-479F-8A31-A8E6A9BBF909_4_5005_c.jpeg
578BFAF3-91AA-479F-8A31-A8E6A9BBF909_4_5005_c.jpeg (9.15 KiB) Viewed 2941 times
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


Topic author
Plankhill
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:04 pm
First Name: Brendan
Last Name: Doughty
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 16 , 21, 24, Touring , 24 Roadster, 26 Speedster
Location: Central Wisconsin
MTFCA Number: 15143

Re: Early Starters

Post by Plankhill » Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:45 am

19 starter.jpg
This is the starter. it has a one screw cover.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4948
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Early Starters

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat May 15, 2021 1:08 pm

I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Ron Patterson
Posts: 528
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:32 pm
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: Patterson
Location: Petoskey, Michigan
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Early Starters

Post by Ron Patterson » Sun May 16, 2021 12:57 pm

I rebuilt Model T starters and generators for 30 + years. I no longer do. During that time I found many early (late 1918-1919) generators and starters that, though functionally the same, had physical differences . The key differences were: style and method of affixing the brush cap cover band (as indicated in posts above), an integral oil seal in the starter mounting bracket, unique generator third brush and all brush plates, unique field winding, unique armature shaft, (very few) manufacturer data plates and many other small changes to facilitate manufacturing and tooling of the basic parts. Some early Ford literature shows photos of these unique units where these early features are discernable.
Fred Allison at Ford electrical engineering department worked with Liberty Electric Company in the initial design and implementation of FA Liberty Starting and Lighting System for the Model T. Most of these early units had minor differences that are not fully documented in Fords engineering prints and Record of Change change system.
Because the very early starter and generators units were manufactured by Liberty Electric you will only find drawings of the main part assembly that could be used for receiving inspection. A similar situation you will find when looking for engineering and manufacturing drawings for the early (Purchased outside Kingston, Heinze, J & B-purchased) Model T ignition coils. To say this another way, little documentation at Ford exists for outside purchased parts.
The FA system was initially a huge Model T success and Ford soon took full control of for future production and today you do not commonly see the early Liberty starter and generators with these unique design features.

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4948
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Early Starters

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun May 16, 2021 3:08 pm

I have seen the FA system in a couple of books. Thank you Ron for the additional information.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Dropacent
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925TT, 1926 Martin-Parry bodied wagon, 1927 mercury bodied speedster
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Early Starters

Post by Dropacent » Sun May 16, 2021 7:39 pm

I’d be glad to post this if anyone wants. It’s only about 8 pages long.
7D421DC1-BF2E-48C7-9EAE-2CE2F4CF3E2F.jpeg


OilyBill
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:51 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: May
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Runabout
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Early Starters

Post by OilyBill » Sun May 16, 2021 9:49 pm

Please do. I would be very interested in reading it.
8 pages of information is 8 pages more than I have now!
Thanks!


Ron Patterson
Posts: 528
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:32 pm
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: Patterson
Location: Petoskey, Michigan
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Early Starters

Post by Ron Patterson » Mon May 17, 2021 9:56 am

Bill
That publication about the FA Starting and Lighting System has photos of the Liberty Electric manufactured Model T Ford generator and starter showing the early features discussed.
My copy was donated to the Bruce McCalley Memorial Library and Research Center. Perhaps you can get Tim Morsher to scan a copy and post it here?
Ron Patterson


Dropacent
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925TT, 1926 Martin-Parry bodied wagon, 1927 mercury bodied speedster
Location: Norwalk Ohio

F A Starter System booklet

Post by Dropacent » Mon May 17, 2021 6:59 pm

DB6DC11A-D1A8-4171-A029-8FCC2F148F64.jpeg
2185F7E8-2D8E-4313-97B9-CD32C9F1D258.jpeg
75755CA0-CD08-4128-8478-C812B67C4CCB.jpeg
3F77E3D5-37DA-4D54-B7B4-3BAF11A93E72.jpeg
7EE4167F-345A-4BB8-B86D-432BA3EA08A5.jpeg


Dropacent
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925TT, 1926 Martin-Parry bodied wagon, 1927 mercury bodied speedster
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Early Starters

Post by Dropacent » Mon May 17, 2021 7:00 pm

D6AFC9BA-522C-42EE-B375-805F3D2174B3.jpeg
782CC2BD-9DC6-4557-B375-312E3B5B4528.jpeg
85EAF907-C87F-4E17-B8FF-419D7746212B.jpeg
5D0FE81A-81EA-4C1C-A063-F4BB7BCBB231.jpeg
FD351E1E-B1F2-442F-BFE0-89174D20F180.jpeg


OilyBill
Posts: 552
Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:51 pm
First Name: William
Last Name: May
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Runabout
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Re: Early Starters

Post by OilyBill » Mon May 17, 2021 11:44 pm

Thanks very much! Very interesting!
I also note that these early units had a data plate on both the starter and the generator.
I have never seen one of these early units, or if I have, I did not know what it was. I will be keeping my eyes peeled now! It would be cool to have a 1919 Ford with this original starter and generator on it.
I think the rarity must be accounted for, because of the advice that if there is trouble with either unit, they should be removed and sent back to the factory. I'm sure they were replaced with the later style units that everyone has, so the number of very early starters and generators that are left out in the general population must be VERY small. Probably the best possibility would be a 1919 car that was parked within 5 years or so of being purchased, before either the starter or generator had the chance to develop a problem and be subject to replacement.
I would be curious if any members have a set of this early electrical equipment on their vehicle?.
Thanks again for posting this! Complete information posted on a very interesting and rare equipment style!


Ron Patterson
Posts: 528
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:32 pm
First Name: Ronald
Last Name: Patterson
Location: Petoskey, Michigan
MTFCA Life Member: YES
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Early Starters

Post by Ron Patterson » Tue May 18, 2021 8:07 am

The FA System pamphlet depicts several interesting things.
Both the starter and generator have Liberty Electric data plates.
The cutout shown in the wiring diagram would have been mounted on the firewall with a ground wire.
The generator does not as yet have a oil slinger.
The charge indicator in the wiring diagram is shown as an ammeter OR indicator.
There is another non Ford book at the McCalley Library showing the other unique Liberty Electric internal manufacturing features.
Ron Patterson

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic