Engine Oil

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Model T Ron
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Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:00 pm

So what kind of Engine Oil do you use in your T and how often do you change it?

Thanks
Ron


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by speedytinc » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:22 pm

NNNNOOOOOOO!!!
Fasten your seat belt. Get ready for 30 opinions.
Me, personally. I run 30 wt valvoline racing in rebuilt , clean motors. (Hi zinc content)
For an old dirty original motor, I use 30 wt non detergent (Napa currently)
An old time T builder told me detergent oil will dissolve the old crud & suspend it in the oil.
I change either every 1000 mile or annually. Its always filthy. Nature of the beast.
Good luck


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:29 pm

speedytinc wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:22 pm
NNNNOOOOOOO!!!
Fasten your seat belt. Get ready for 30 opinions.
Me, personally. I run 30 wt valvoline racing in rebuilt , clean motors. (Hi zinc content)
For an old dirty original motor, I use 30 wt non detergent (Napa currently)
An old time T builder told me detergent oil will dissolve the old crud & suspend it in the oil.
I change either every 1000 mile or annually. Its always filthy. Nature of the beast.
Good luck
I would think changing it more often would help get the crud out if it's filthy. Modern oils are light years ahead of what they had in the day.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:57 pm

My dad had his T engine rebuilt in 1976. Was given the "use non-detergent oil" baloney by the builder. After religiously changing the oil every 6 months for the next 35 years and accumulating a grand total of 5800 miles on the engine, he burned a rod. When I inspected the engine I found that it was full of goopy jelly clinging to every horizontal surface and the dips had groves plowed through the goop which impeded liquid oil from getting in there to lube the rods. It was interesting to note that the oil drained quickly, but the internals were jelled contaminated gunk which never showed it's face until it starved #1 rod.

For this plus all of the other terrible wear (5800 miles!!!) the engine was essentially ruined and required another complete rebuild. He is running modern oil now and running the daylights out of the car with zero trouble for the past many years, as well as racking up many thousands of miles which he never did on the last engine. Old age has increased his dare-devilishness and he has become fearless, where before he treated the car like a glass ornament.

The best thing you can do is take the bottom pan off, clean all of the crystalized carbon and sand from all of the internals of the engine and then run any frickin' modern oil that suits you...just avoid non-detergent oil. If you do not clean things up pre-emptively, your new oil will always turn coal-black in about 10 seconds of running and all that crap/contamination will just circulate through the bearings (non-detergent or not).
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Kerry » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:59 pm

It seems when this topic comes up that weather conditions are a big consideration, not for the engine but the clutch pack. A thicker oil makes it drag and hard to turn over for starting. At my end of the world this is not a issue and for what the engine design is, a 15/40 is good on a fresh re-build, 30 is a good all rounder and 20/50 for a mileage engine, I myself change every 300+ miles.

As the saying go's use a cheap oil and change often.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:03 pm

Scott_Conger wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:57 pm


The best thing you can do is take the bottom pan off, clean all of the crystalized carbon and sand from all of the internals of the engine and then run any frickin' modern oil that suits you...just avoid non-detergent oil. If you do not clean things up pre-emptively, your new oil will always turn coal-black in about 10 seconds of running and all that crap/contamination will just circulate through the bearings (non-detergent or not).
Any tip or tricks when it comes to dropping the pan? I know on the model A it can be hard to get a good seal when putting on a new gasket.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by modeltspaz » Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:31 pm

In my world, the subject of this thread is like asking ten Italian guys "So, how do you make macaroni gravy"? :lol: :lol:
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:36 pm

Model T Ron wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:00 pm
So what kind of Engine Oil do you use in your T and how often do you change it?
Thanks
Ron
Changing oil in a modern car means draining the old oil out, replacing the oil filter and adding new oil to the manufacturers specifications. Detergent oil puts contaminants in suspension so they can be filtered out by a filter.
The Model T specification
From https://modeltfordfix.com/care-and-feed ... el-t-ford/ By Royce Peterson
oil weight.png
oil weight.png (650.48 KiB) Viewed 1686 times
The original specification for the Model T was "light" oil as oil was only defined as "light" medium" and "heavy".T he guys who collect oil cans know the answer, because there was a period of time in the 1930’s – 1940’s when oil cans were marked with both the old “Light, Medium or Heavy” designations and the current designations. ... So we now know the answer. Light = SAE 20, Medium = SAE 30, Heavy = SAE 40
How often?
Since the Model T has no oil filter in which case non-detergent oil would be period correct. Changing the oil in a T should not be limited to draining but should include removing the inspection cover on the oil dip pan now and then . If you haven't ever done it now's the time. Non-detergent oil causes the contaminants to adhere to inside engine surfaces, so don't be shocked with sludge build up.
oil2.png
oil2.png (859.07 KiB) Viewed 1686 times
As Royce points out don't use oil with additives that can be attracted to the magnets in your magneto if you have one. Another consideration is the transmission with its so called "wet clutch", brake and reverse bands. This may lead you to consider Motorcycle oils formulated for that.
In the end seasonal temperatures affect choices as well and multi-grades are always an option. New high performance car engines (My 2 stage snow blower as well) are calling for 0W30. 0 weight is for quick lubrication and easy starting in all weather conditions. Cost and oil change frequency should drive your choice amongst brands and between synthetic and refined/re-refined oil.

So weigh member choices, your location and driving habits, oil parameters and your budget
Last edited by TRDxB2 on Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:46 pm

Ron

Once removed and cleaned up, this is what I do and I have no leaks in that area (can't say the same for a multitude of other places) ;) :

clean the pan and cover within an inch of their life
reform the cover flat as they invariably are bent up like a potato chip and each bolt hole is puckered; everything needs to be flat and unstressed for reassembly
smear a healthy coating of grease on the pan
apply a bead of Ultra Black to the inside of the cover, install the paper gasket and another bead of Ultra Black.
Reattach using Stat-o-Seals on each bolt (cap screw) head
gently tighten and look for a little ooze from the Ultra Black
Allow to cure 24 hours
Snug up bolts, add oil, and call it done

the next time the cover needs to come off, you will be able to "pop" the cover off and the Ultra Black will have made a perfect impression of every divot and scratch on the pan and will now reseal multiple times without leaking.

the same works for the hog's head door
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John kuehn » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:21 pm

Well here it goes again.
Go to your nearest Dollar store, WalMart, Auto Zone and buy the store brand oil. 10W-30 will work just fine. Much better than when a T was new and from then on.
Don’t waste your money on some super duper, ultra synthetic, the best ever oil or whatever.
Your T will run just fine. This is a subject that gets many many answers.
Change around a 1000 miles or so.

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:50 pm

You might want to consider a transmission oil screen. It has a magnet to catch ferrous particles and a screen for larger crud such as band fibers. Clean it every few hundred miles. More frequently on a new rebuild.

This photo shows one where they waited too long to clean it.
IMG_2141.jpg
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by JBog » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:01 pm

5W30, whatever brand is on sale. Detergent oils keep crud in suspension, they do not strip gunk out of an engine. If you're worried, change it in 100 miles a couple of times to flush anything out.

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by varmint » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:16 pm

Zinc is a conductor of electricity but is not magnetic.

If there is something stuck to the magnets, it is engine wear.

No where above did I ever say that you should or should not use zinc.

If you installed a catalytic convertor then do not use zinc.
Vern (Vieux Carre)


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:21 pm

JBog wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:01 pm
5W30, whatever brand is on sale. Detergent oils keep crud in suspension, they do not strip gunk out of an engine. If you're worried, change it in 100 miles a couple of times to flush anything out.
I think my Grand Father once said something about flushing an engine out with Kerosene to clean crud out of an engine. Any validity to this method or is it a big NO NO?

Ron


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by old_charley » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:09 am

For what my two cents is worth, I've been using Valvoline VR1 20W50 for years with no issues. I have no idea if there is a benefit to a multi-viscosity oil in a T and no idea if the high zinc content is actually beneficial in a low r.p.m. engine with relatively light valve spring pressure. Why not play it safe zinc-wise? One thought that I don't recall seeing discussed about oil regards engine startup and the viscosity. It would seem that a higher viscosity oil would "stick" to the bearings and journals while the engine is not in use leaving a decent coating of oil for start up while something like a 5W30 would be more likely to drain out of the bearings. Conversely, the lighter oil would get into the bearings easier/quicker when cold. Any one else's thoughts on this?

All that said, you can't go wrong with John (Speedyt)'s 30 weight recommendation.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Kerry » Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:09 am

As a engine builder at my end of the world, I can tell you now I don't set babbitt to have 1/2 thou clearance to warrant 5-20w oil.

I bought a new Malibu in 2016 for my wife, service book recommends 5-20w. If you wont to hear a timing chain rattle like a machine gun in a new car on a cold start, use 5-20.

Australian 6 cyl Fords had the same problem with the button hydraulic tappets on the OHC, draining out after sitting. 10 or 15-30 solved the problem.
So Bryan, yes agree with you, a 5w is to thin for a bearing clearance of 1.5 to 2 thou in a T.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TXGOAT2 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:23 am

A good multi-grade detergent oil with a first number of 20, such as 20-50, is fine for warm weather operation. For cold starts in anything but severe winter weather, a 10 W 30 is fine. If your engine holds oil well, a synthetic may be a good choice. If it leaks and burns oil, use a good conventional multigrade. If multigrade oil had been available in the Model T era, I'm sure Ford would have recommended it. A Model T needs an oil that flows well on cold starts for proper engine lubrication and to allow the wet clutch to function properly. Once the engine reaches operating temperature, the engine will do well with a 30 or 40 W oil. A multigrade oil allows you to get the benefits of both a 10 or 20 W AND a 30, 40, or 50 W at operating temperature. Quality modern oils have better film strength than straight mineral oils of the past, so you can run 0W 20 0r 10 W 20 in a tight T engine, but I see no need to do so for everyday service in the Temperate Zone. If you live at Point Barrow or Minsk or some such place, You probably need a 0W synthetic.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:53 am

I agree with John. Any good 10W30 and oldav8tor Oil screen and magnet.
This works well in a clean engine. Since there is no oil filter nor pump, you should not use very high viscosity such as 50 because it has to flow down the oil tube to the pan dips and the quicker you get it to flow after starting the engine the better. Synthetic is a waste of money. It is not any better lubricant, however it doesn't break down as quickly and can be used for longer periods without oil change. But in a Model T there is no filter except a screen over the transmission. so you should change the oil often because of particles in the and do not need the lasting properties of synthetic.
Norm


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:53 am

I agree with John. Any good 10W30 and oldav8tor Oil screen and magnet.
This works well in a clean engine. Since there is no oil filter nor pump, you should not use very high viscosity such as 50 because it has to flow down the oil tube to the pan dips and the quicker you get it to flow after starting the engine the better. Synthetic is a waste of money. It is not any better lubricant, however it doesn't break down as quickly and can be used for longer periods without oil change. But in a Model T there is no filter except a screen over the transmission. so you should change the oil often because of particles in the and do not need the lasting properties of synthetic.
Norm


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:43 pm

What about Shell Rotella 15w40. That's the stuff I use in my Model A

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by fbergski » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:50 pm

I use Johnny Cash oil, works great.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:24 pm

fbergski wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:50 pm
I use Johnny Cash oil, works great.
What is Johnny Cash oil?

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Old school » Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:21 am

“What about Shell Rotella 15w40. That's the stuff I use in my Model A”

This is my first Model T. I purchased it from a gentleman with a Model T and A shop and he suggested I use that same oil.
Retired ... nothing to do and all day to do it.

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Oldav8tor » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:11 am

Pretty much any multigrade detergent oil is good. Me, I buy a four gallon case of Rotella at Sam's club - either 15W40 or 10W30 - I use it in my 87 I/O Boat, 53 Ford Tractor, 52 Willys Jeep and Model T. The extra zinc is needed in these older engines although the experts tell me not so much for a Model T.... my thoughts? It can't hurt. Frequent oil changes for the T whatever oil you use.

One advantage of gallon jugs....A T takes 4 quarts AND you have a jug for the waste oil. After I collect a few gallons I drop the waste off at a local oil place and don't have to deal with a mess.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by paddy1998 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:45 am

Whatever conventional oil is cheapest.

5W-30, 10W-30, 15 W-40, whatever.

Costco had 3 gallons of 15W-40 on sale a few weeks ago for @ $22.00.

I drive less than 500 miles per year and put it away for winter, so I'm all set for a few years.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Codman » Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:18 am

Kerry wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:09 am
As a engine builder at my end of the world, I can tell you now I don't set babbitt to have 1/2 thou clearance to warrant 5-20w oil.

I bought a new Malibu in 2016 for my wife, service book recommends 5-20w. If you wont to hear a timing chain rattle like a machine gun in a new car on a cold start, use 5-20.

Australian 6 cyl Fords had the same problem with the button hydraulic tappets on the OHC, draining out after sitting. 10 or 15-30 solved the problem.
So Bryan, yes agree with you, a 5w is to thin for a bearing clearance of 1.5 to 2 thou in a T.
My 2005 Dodge Magnum with the 5.7 Hemi is supposed to have 5W20 non-synthetic oil, which is required to be changed at 3,000 mile intervals according to the manual. I have been doing this since we picked up the new Dodge in November of 2004. It now has 155,000 miles on it; I have never added a quart of oil between changes, and the engine is as quiet as it was on the day it was delivered. We lived in New England for the first ten years that we owned it and there were plenty of very cold starts. I never heard a timing chain rattle. I think you have a Chevrolet problem, not a 5W20 issue. JMHO.

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:21 am

Some explanations relative to Modern Cars not Model T's
https://www.caranddriver.com/research/a ... hetic-oil/
What are synthetic oils made from?
Full synthetic motor oil uses the highest possible quality base oil as a starting point , but the industry specifics are a bit murky. Aside from the base oil, synthetic motor oil often incorporates additives to create the final product. Even though no two brand's synthetic oils are equal, full synthetics still provide better protection than conventional oils or synthetic blends.
Synthetic Oil Change Interval
Most synthetic oils are rated to last between 10,000 to 15,000 miles, or six months to a year. ...If you drive less than 10 miles a day and don’t drive on highways, you may need to change your oil more often because your engine likely isn't heating up to a temperature high enough to boil off condensation that accumulates in the system, and therefore your oil can break up more quickly and need replacement often. In such cases, it may be a good idea to change your oil sooner than your rated mileage recommendations.
https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/ ... cosity-faq
Is thicker oil better?
In some circumstances, thicker oil can be used to compensate for increased bearing clearances (gaps between bearing and rotating shaft) that have developed over the years. A large change in bearing clearances can result in poorer lubrication. For best performance always follow the recommendations for motor oil viscosity in your vehicle's owner's manual.
When does it make sense to use straight weight oil (SAE30) versus a multigrade oil (5W-30)?
Straight weight oil is never recommended for use in a system that requires a multi-viscosity oil. Straight weight oils are generally recommended for smaller engines or older vehicles that were made before multi-viscosity oils were produced.
https://www.columbiatireauto.com/Blog/I ... -Questions
What does the “W” stand for in a multi-weight oil?
So the numbers represent the oil’s grades when cold and when warm. But what about the letter “W”? Simple. It stands for “Winter”.
When might it make sense to use straight weight oil (ie. SAE30) rather than multi-weight oil (5W-30)? Straight-weight oil has one potential advantage over its multi-weight cousins. Because it does not contain viscosity improvers (the additives that allow a low-viscosity oil to perform as a higher-viscosity oil), straight-weight oil has better shear protection. Shear is the breakdown of viscosity during operation, especially when an engine is running at high RPMs. Some muscle cars with older engines might benefit from straight-weight oil, unless they are driven in the cold, in which case the benefit of a multi-weight oil outweighs the improved shear resistance. Most engine wear occurs not when the engine is hot, but on startup when the engine is cool. If you drive a classic, you might consider straight-weight. That said, straight-weight oil is never recommended for an engine that calls for multi-weight oil.
Is thicker oil better for an engine?
There are some circumstances where drivers have used thicker oil in an engine. If, for instance, clearances between engine components have increased, gotten sloppy, a thicker oil can help to fill the void. Within reason, thicker oil maintains a better lubricant film between moving parts. Some have even used thicker oil in a leaky engine to prevent oil from seeping out.
But really, thicker oil is not good for your engine. Not when “thicker” means higher viscosity than the manufacturer recommends. Your engine was built to specific tolerances - spaces between the moving parts. So the recommendation for a specific grade of oil is deliberate. The oil needs to be able to coat those surfaces, but it also needs to be able to flow into all of the tight spaces in a modern engine that has been engineered to be smaller and lighter weight, and with tighter tolerances. The best grade of oil for your engine is the grade recommended by the manufacturer.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Hudson29 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:35 pm

"The original specification for the Model T was "light" oil as oil was only defined as "light" medium" and "heavy".T he guys who collect oil cans know the answer, because there was a period of time in the 1930’s – 1940’s when oil cans were marked with both the old “Light, Medium or Heavy” designations and the current designations. ... So we now know the answer. Light = SAE 20, Medium = SAE 30, Heavy = SAE 40"

I have often wondered what Ford meant by the term "light oil." This looks like pretty good evidence toward understanding the term. Thanks for posting that!

Paul
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:45 pm

Did the 30wt non D for years. Until I had to move the car one damn cold February morning. NG. Switched to 10w 30 from then on.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Jun 24, 2021 6:13 pm

More basic information about motor oil by a well respected product manufacturer - could cause some adjust their preferences
https://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Tmooreheadf » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:19 pm

Shell Rotella Type 1, 30 wt for diesels. Works pretty darn good and is reasonable by the gallon!

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by fbergski » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm

Model T Ron wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 11:24 pm
fbergski wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:50 pm
I use Johnny Cash oil, works great.
What is Johnny Cash oil?
Johnny Cash oil is the best. Here's how it's made. First I take an empty 5 quart container from an oil change on one of my vehicles. After the next oil change I pour the left over new oil into this container. Soon it's full because I have five cars, two motorcycles and a quad. There always a half or so quart left over.

It's kinda like the Johnny Cash song about the car that he made out of a little bit of every thing, It's a true multi viscosity oil.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:48 pm

And there, Frank, is absolute proof that people either will not read useful information provided to them, or apply that information for their own self interest when presented with it.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by varmint » Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:52 pm

Dykes Manual was quoted twice above but that written material was published in the 1930's. However, detergent oil was introduced in the 1950's which means that the opinion stated could not possibly have taken into consideration advances in technology. Just pointing out a fact.

If an owner uses non-detergent oil, which is historically correct, and has to deal with sludge sticking to the surfaces of the engine with each oil change, is the owner also going to pull the engine each time, separating it from the crankcase in order to get to the sludge that is stuck around the transmission? I seriously doubt that any non-detergent supporter has ever removed all the sludge.
Vern (Vieux Carre)

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TRDxB2 » Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:44 am

varmint wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:52 pm
Dykes Manual was quoted twice above but that written material was published in the 1930's. However, detergent oil was introduced in the 1950's which means that the opinion stated could not possibly have taken into consideration advances in technology. Just pointing out a fact.

If an owner uses non-detergent oil, which is historically correct, and has to deal with sludge sticking to the surfaces of the engine with each oil change, is the owner also going to pull the engine each time, separating it from the crankcase in order to get to the sludge that is stuck around the transmission? I seriously doubt that any non-detergent supporter has ever removed all the sludge.
These notes are from various sources of information available on the internet from the major oil manufactures
How long for a oil to turn into sludge in the crank case?
The answer is far longer than you might think. First off, sludge formation is as much a 'fuel thing' as it is an oil thing. All of the sludge tests that industry has used over the years to simulate sludge formation require a prolonged very cold start-up phase to ensure a lot of unburnt fuel gets into the oil. If you don't get fuel related nasties into the oil, you won't form sludge.

Detergent oil vs non-detergent oil in an unfiltered engine, like a Model T.
Detergent oils hold the crud (carbon and metal particles, etc from your engine) in suspension so it can be filter out via an oil filter. Non-detergent oils effectively do exactly the same thing. If there is no oil filter then what is the effective difference between a detergent oil and a non-detergent oil?

How do you prevent sludge build up in an unfiltered engine"
-Change the oil every 500 to 1000 miles regardless of how "good" the oil is.
-Frequent topping off the oil reservoir with fresh clean oil does not alter the oil change schedule. The "dirty" oil is just geting dirtier. This is likely the cause of sludge build up in any engine - topping off without changing the oil.

Why do vintage engines always have sludge build up prior to rebuild"
You'll have to ask the previous owners how often they changed the oil.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Kaiser » Fri Jun 25, 2021 10:41 am

Ahh, don't you love a good oil topic ?
It has been a while but am enjoying it immensely
What a good start of the weekend :D
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Heaman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:34 am

fbergski wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm
It's kinda like the Johnny Cash song about the car that he made out of a little bit of every thing, It's a true multi viscosity oil.
Sooooo, since Johnny also sang 'Ring Of Fire', do you add Preparation H to the mix?

I have no opinion on oil. I just know it's required.
I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member! :roll:

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Heaman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:37 am

John Heaman wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:34 am
fbergski wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm
It's kinda like the Johnny Cash song about the car that he made out of a little bit of every thing, It's a true multi viscosity oil.

Sooooo, since Johnny also sang 'Ring Of Fire', do you add Preparation H to the mix?

I have no opinion on oil. I just know it's required.
I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member! :roll:

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Heaman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:42 am

John Heaman wrote:
Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:34 am
fbergski wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:36 pm
It's kinda like the Johnny Cash song about the car that he made out of a little bit of every thing, It's a true multi viscosity oil.
Sooooo, since Johnny also sang 'Ring Of Fire', do you add Preparation H to the mix?
Last edited by John Heaman on Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member! :roll:

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Heaman » Sun Jun 27, 2021 11:46 am

Ha ha....been trying to correct my post and each time it adds a new one! My bad!
I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member! :roll:


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Jun 27, 2021 12:44 pm

Why do vintage engines always have sludge build up prior to rebuild"
You'll have to ask the previous owners how often they changed the oil.
Frank, I would have agreed with this until my dad burned out a rod on his T. He was an ardent proponent of Non-Detergent (as his engine builder told him around the 1976 time-frame) and changed the oil religiously, with few miles put on the engine each season. During the change, the oil always ran out quickly and with no evidence of sludge or a clue as to the disaster building deep in the engine.

Upon pulling his inspection pan to get a look at the rod, I found an inch-deep chocolate-pudding-like mess and the rods simply dipped into the goopy mess, not pulling up clean liquid oil but rather the more liquid-y slop that slowly flowed back into the dips. Unfortunately, the T engine is designed with a number of traps which will not allow for a complete oil replenishment with each change and in my dad's case with so little miles and such long breaks from driving, that no amount of regular oil changes stopped the goop from building up. That poor engine had very few miles in the 35+ years it had been last rebuilt, and the engine was reduced to trash. Ron's Machine Shop did the job for this last time and dad now drives it daily, using modern oil, and in the past 8 years has racked up 5X the miles on the engine than it received the previous 35. It is still going strong.

It took several generations of humankind to finally lose the oral tradition and memory that bleeding a patient was a good thing, long after medical professionals gave up the practice, and I believe the same is occuring with the "ByGawdIfItWasGoodEnuffForHenryItsGoodEnuffForMe crowd". Another generation or two and they will not debate Non-Detergent oil vs Modern Oil. I sometimes suspect that it will be a robust discussion as to "what was oil?" and "why would anyone ever use it?" But that's for another discussion at another time.

Frequent oil changes will NOT eliminate sludge build-up in a T engine that uses Non-Detergent oil...only slow it's build-up. Seen it, done it, don't need the T-shirt.
Scott Conger

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by speedytinc » Sun Jun 27, 2021 2:01 pm

Aways back, I worked with an engine builder/mechanic. For a new rebuild we used 1 qt of rislone & topped with don detergent for a short break in. then on mfg recommended wt detergent oil.
Fresh T rebuilds the same with 30 wt detergent. Never non-detergent after break in.

An old, respected T builder told me about the detergent suspension & picking up extra crud from the old deposits. Made sense.
Never witnessed your fathers motor experience. Maybe cause most T's dont run that many miles today.
Wish I knew the definitive answer.

I have been putting a drain fitting in #3 dipper to drain maximum oil. Considered doing that for 1&2 also, but, seems excessive. No drain in #4 dipper, would dump all over the wishbone.
I braze a 5/16" fine nut & use a very short bolt for a plug.

FWIW Doing motor rebuilds, we came across a few very cruddy engines. The common link was the use of Penzoil with Z7. Parifin based oil.
Funny thing was most had minimal wear, but failed from oil passages & return holes near or completely plugged. Valvoline motors were typically clean enough to eat off.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Model T Ron » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:46 am

Well I did get to changing all my fluids on my 1915 Touring on the 4th of July and for the oil I went with what I use on all my old cars.....that's Shell Rotella 15w40. The oil in the car was not to bad and still transparent on my aftermarket dip stick but the transmission filter screen an magnet did have some crud in their but that was expected. I ran the car for a few miles and checked the oil and it was as clean as could be. I do not know the history of my car but it has a KC Warford and the fluid looked good but I changed it along with the differential. I also have an electric fuel pump, distributer, alternator, and disk brakes so I think the prior owners used the car and I plan on doing the same. Thanks for all the comments.

Ron


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:30 am

The best way to sludge up an engine up is to use it for short trips only. The shorter the trip and the colder the weather, the better! Starting it up in cold weather and letting it idle for several minutes to warm up is also good for promoting sludging. Starting it up every week or so during off season storage and letting it run a few minutes, then shutting it down without driving it at all helps a lot to promote sludging, as do worn out rings and anything that causes the engine to miss. Running too rich helps, as does a head gasket that leaks. As for oil, any good oil is OK for a Model T, with 10W30 detergent oil probably being best for general use. Extreme operating conditions may warrant a 20W50 or 10W20 oil. If you insist on using non-detergent oil, use a good quality oil in the proper viscosity range for the operating conditions and make it a point to run the car for at least several miles, preferably 10 miles or more, every time you start it. If you're not going to drive it, don't start it, especially in cold weather or under conditions of high humidity. Sludging is greatly aggravated by moisture in the crankcase. All engines deposit moisture in the crankcase when running, and in some areas, natural condensation of atmospheric moisture can deposit moisture in crankcases and other interior spaces even in engines that are not running. The only way to be rid of the moisture is to run the engine AT OPERATING TEMPERATURE for some period of time; the more time, the better. Doing so will heat the oil to near the boiling point of water while circulating and agitating it, which will cause the trapped moisture to evaporate and escape via the crankcase ventialtion system, IF the engine has one. In the case of the Model T, moisture will be driven out of the hot engine at the filler cap and at the throttle rod openings the the block and at valve chamber cover. If your engine lacks these openings, a ventilated oil filler cap might be a good idea if you use your T sparingly and live in a humid region. Moisture in the crankcase is the biggest contributor to engine sludging, aided and abetted by soot and gum in the oil. In extreme cases, rust can occur on internal engine surfaces and sludge really loves to grab on to rust.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by Caswell » Mon Jul 05, 2021 10:43 am

Mobil 1 VTwin 20w50 or for none synthetic Castrol Classic 20w50 high zinc.


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Re: Engine Oil

Post by TXGOAT2 » Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:59 pm

There are many claims made by many purveyors of motor oil and their champions, but only one product stands supreme: HADACOL! https://youtu.be/y1ekxKklRdo

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Re: Engine Oil

Post by John Heaman » Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:16 pm

...and remember, don't make love to Mary with Mabel on your mind!

3042D3FA-2BAD-4C50-B3FD-CB39E56BBC35_4_5005_c.jpeg
3042D3FA-2BAD-4C50-B3FD-CB39E56BBC35_4_5005_c.jpeg (38.19 KiB) Viewed 432 times
I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member! :roll:

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