Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
FATMAN
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 am
First Name: ROBERT
Last Name: BERGSTADT
Location: LOVES PARK IL
MTFCA Number: 1575

Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by FATMAN » Thu Jan 30, 2020 1:27 pm

I got this engine from a customer, has been re stamped with a 1915 number also got title with this but the casting date is not what should be on the block, look at photos please, Bob
any idea of the year of this engine
Attachments
1915 ENG 005.JPG
1915 ENG 004.JPG
1915 ENG 018.JPG
1915 ENG 003.JPG
1915 ENG 002.JPG


rickd
Posts: 401
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:56 pm
First Name: Rick
Last Name: Duquette
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1913 Touring, 1914 Touring, 1925 Touring, 1927 PU, 1955 T Bird, 69 Shelby GT 350
Location: Grand Forks, North Dakota
MTFCA Number: 21848
MTFCI Number: 22173
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by rickd » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:34 pm

Bob, I will take a stab at it and defer to others far more experienced. I see a casting date of July 8, 1919 so it can't be a 1915 engine. But what about the fact it is a non-generator-starter block? In the CD encyclopedia the Ford Engineering drawing dates indicate that the cylinder block T 400C was obsoleted on July 24, 1919 and replaced by T400D, the starter type of cylinder block. The info in the encyclopedia also indicates that the actual change to the parts could occur before or after the dates of the engineering drawing dates. So my thought is that you have a 1919 engine that was cast during that change over period between non-starter and starter cylinder blocks.

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by DanTreace » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:41 pm

Rick

You're correct, its a 1919 early without generator casting on block.

Bob's is dated July 8. Was re-stamped for '1915' numbers, maybe to sneak into HCCA early tours. :?


Casting date on block.jpg
Diagram for reading dates on the clock face casting patterns of later blocks, saved off this forum.
Last edited by DanTreace on Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3638
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:43 pm

Looks like it was a 1915 engine, but with a replacement block from 1919. US production used that "circle" casting code date for about three years, roughly 1919 through '22. After which US blocks stopped using date codes entirely. Canadian production blocks used circle date codes for many more years. Very unusual to find circle date codes on a "no generator" block! Most no generator blocks were early enough to still use the in-line date codes. It was not rare for replacement blocks to have no serial number from the factory, and then be stamped the the original block's serial number. Usually such blocks were used to replace original blacks that had been damaged beyond repair. Although that is not a given. It is possible for two engines to have matching serial numbers. I seem to recall hearing of it being found once.


Topic author
FATMAN
Posts: 1650
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:28 am
First Name: ROBERT
Last Name: BERGSTADT
Location: LOVES PARK IL
MTFCA Number: 1575

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by FATMAN » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:59 pm

So it seems to be early 19 but replaced and stamped to 15, cool, will be listing it for sale with a clear 15 roadster title, Bob


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3638
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 3:45 pm

Regardless, it is a markedly late non generator block. Blocks began appearing for the generator somewhere around November or December of 1918 for the generator equipped enclosed body cars. Open cars and TT trucks continued getting the no generator blocks until about February or March of 1919, after which most open cars got block-off covers for the generator. TT trucks continued getting the no generator blocks until early in the 1920 model year. I do not know, but would suspect some replacement blocks were produced in the no generator style until late in the 1919 year. Ford would not have continued the practice for very long because the problems with inventory control for both generator and no generator blocks would have outweighed the savings of using the old forms. No doubt dealers were encouraged to get rid of the earlier style blocks quickly to customers with earlier cars.

That block technically would not qualify for active HCCA use. Although, in practice? Probably nobody would actually call it out. I have never seen heavy enforcement of those rules. Never seen cars checked for compliance on any tour. And in fact have known of cars that ran later engines (supposedly for the addition of a starter for aging members, even though changing the block is NOT necessary for adding a starter). And many HCCA cars use Ruckstells and '20s era wire wheels or demountable rim wheels in spite of the fact those also technically would violate the HCCA rules.

Another little secret, or reality check. Although technically not covered in the rules, cars are generally allowed to participate with later engines provided the car owner has possession of a correct engine. (Later engine must be basically like the original engine, later model T engine in a model T, later Reo F-head four in a Reo F-head four.) "Correct" engine should not be any newer than one year newer than the car originally was, and must be pre-January '16 regardless of car's year (therefore a late '15 build automobile cannot have a one year later engine although earlier cars can!).

And I do not speak officially for the club. Just as a member that has been around this block more than a few times.

User avatar

richc
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:44 pm
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Chillingworth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 C-Cab TT
Location: Tulsa, OK
MTFCA Number: 30527
MTFCI Number: 23207

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by richc » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:13 pm

Although the circular casting date is generally considered introduced in 1919, they actually started showing up early as mid 1918. I have two 1918 blocks with a circular casting date, the earlier one (June) shown below, and have seen one other.
Block with Circ casting.JPG
On the flip side of this thread, the inline style casting date survived on some blocks as late as October 1919.
Oct 19 straight casting date 1.jpg
The switch over from the inline to circular casting date apparently took a long time!

Rich C.


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3638
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:51 pm

Thank you Rich C for sharing your block and information. Like most changes to our beloved model Ts, a crossover time is expected. It is always nice when someone can show some of the extremes.
A question. Are both your '18 blocks with the circle date a pre-generator block? Or would one of them be one of the first generator blocks? I would wonder if the circle date somewhat corresponded with the change to generators. Also, could your late "in-line" date block be a late "no generator" block? The latest no generator block I have seen so far was in an early TT with an early '20 build (but I didn't get to see the casting date).

User avatar

richc
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:44 pm
First Name: Rich
Last Name: Chillingworth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 C-Cab TT
Location: Tulsa, OK
MTFCA Number: 30527
MTFCI Number: 23207

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by richc » Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:18 pm

Wayne – both my 1918 circular casting date blocks, plus the other one I saw, were all pre-generator blocks. For 1919 blocks there are four different styles, if I may call them that. They are inline casting dates with and w/o generator provision and circular casting dates with and w/o generator provision. The latest 1919 pre-generator block I own is a circular casting date of 3-28-19 and built April 1, 1919. I’d love to find a 1918 generator block!

Rich C.


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3638
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Strange model t motor casting date, any ideas

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Fri Jan 31, 2020 3:15 am

I would think they must have made a few? I know the myth that all 1919 model enclosed body model Ts had a starter and generator is wrong. As often happens (then and now) there were some delays getting the new generators and starters ready for the automobile production. However, I think I heard that they began appearing on the cars in December of 1918 (I could be wrong about that?). It was a couple months more before they began offering the option on open cars.
I always wanted to have one of the last enclosed cars without a starter and generator!

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic