Improved cars, actual first date of production?

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Luke
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Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Luke » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:10 am

Not wanting to hijack Scott C's thread on his 26-27 Roadster, but it prompted me to ask something I've wondered about for a while.

I have '26 (well, maybe it's a '26) 'New Beauty' runabout. It was imported into this country from Douglas County, GA, somewhere between 2011-2013.

Having looked it up I see the motor was manufactured somewhere in March/April 1925. Unfortunately I'm unable to find any chassis number to assist with dating the car itself, but from the info in Scott's thread I take it to be an early one because it doesn't have the headlamp cross bar etc.

While I'm aware that in the intervening 94 or so years the motor, and even chassis, could have been changed out I'd still like to know as much about the origin of the vehicle as possible. I'd asked previously to no avail but just in case there's anyone in or around Douglas County that could perhaps make a couple of enquiries for me I'd really appreciate hearing from you. Being many thousands of miles distant makes things a bit difficult - I do have the name of the previous US owner if that helps.

Anyway, back to where I was heading; if this is a '1926', what could be the earliest possible actual date of manufacture? Is there any way it could have had the present motor in it from new?

DSC_0061_low_res.jpg

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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by dobro1956 » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:01 am

Your photo shows a 1926-27 Improved model. I can see the 26-27 style fenders and windshield frame in the photo. The Improved models start August 1925. Your engine date will be an "early" 1926 model. There was no serial numbers on the frames till Dec 12, 1925. There are several details that are unique to the "early" models.

Some of the early details are, headlights with no bar, aluminum step plates, small holes on inside of doors. Aluminum grommet on side curtain rod hole in top of door, 4 small rivets in firewall for gas tank pad. These are just some of the early details.

If you want to post some more photos, I can let you know what to take photos of.

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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by DanTreace » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:26 am

Luke

Easy way to tell if your motor was original to the Improved Car that came out Aug 1925 is to look at the rear of your engine block.

There should be two threaded bosses that hold the hogs head bolts of the Improved Car transmission. If your block doesn’t have those bosses, that engine block had been changed at sometime, can’t be original to an Improved Car.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Original Smith » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:37 am

If your engine is correct, it will have the boss on the back side of the block for the two transmission cover bolts. I once had a 1925 block with the boss, and NO bolt holes.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by John Codman » Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:08 am

A question - Are the brighy plated windshield posts accurate? I don't remember seeing those on a later Model T.

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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by TFan » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:12 pm

Luke, It would appear that your car does not have the later front spindles, I've heard that the very early improved cars came that way. In the picture the gray one is the improved lowered one. Jim
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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by John kuehn » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:09 pm

If your car is a pretty much correct early production improved car it won’t be a surprise to have a few items from the previous year (25) on it. Ford would use up earlier production parts to not be wasteful. I think a 26 T would have a few earlier year parts for up to 2-3 months or earlier and then be a “complete 26”. My opinion of course but it’s not uncommon for a T to be dated into the next year if it wasent sold before the new arrival cars showed up. It would be quite possible for the next years date to be on the title and start the confusion of what year it actually is.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:34 pm

given the stalk headlights, which were an early '26 feature, you may ultimately find that the windshield stantions are completely unique. They were changed for the '26 year (in late '25) and then were quickly abandoned for even heavier versions which carried through the '26 year and on through '27.

If you compare yours to another improved car and find that the base of your stantions where attached to the body, appears slightly different though stylistically similar, that is the reason.
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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Luke » Mon Feb 03, 2020 8:17 pm

Gosh, thanks everyone for your help - it's certainly given me a bit to go on!

Dan & Larry, I'll attach a couple of photos below, from your information it seems to me that the motor may not be original as it doesn't appear to have the boss, also it doesn't have the wider brake band so I guess it means the trans is not likely to be original either?


engine_rear.jpg


Donnie, I'm happy to post any more photo's you think may assist. It does have aluminium kick plates, but I suspect they're repro or NOS (too good). I'm not sure about the tank rivets, size of holes (what constitutes 'small'?), and there's no aluminium grommet on the door - I assume that'd be immediately obvious?

Jim, here's a closeup of the RHS spindle. Guess you're right.


spindle.jpg


John C & Scott, I'm not certain that the windscreen stanchions are original. They appear to me to be in remarkable condition, not sure if anyone produces repro items but it's possible they could be new. Unfortunately there's no other U.S. produced model here that I'm aware of - they're generally all Canadian, being RHD, so not sure if I can compare directly?

On the plus side it does have the later/larger rear drums, but otherwise it may well be as John K describes; Ford was probably ratting around the spare parts bin and using up whatever was at hand - or it's had a good ol' mix 'n match of bits over the years. In any event from Donnie's info it seems likely to be pre-Dec '25 'cos I've never found a chassis number.

In case it helps it was also listed as a 1925 in the U.S., but I assume that was based on the engine number and nothing else - perhaps someone could enlighten me as to what GA requirements would be on this? It's registered here as a 1926 simply because everyone said that was more correct, but if in fact it was manufactured in '25 I'd have preferred to use that date. Probably too late to change now anyway, and I don't suppose it really matters.

I guess I could try ringing around a few repair shops in Douglasville, which is where it came from, there might be someone that knows something about it since it clearly had a bit of work before I got it (and did more work). I managed to exchange an email with the previous owner's son, although helpful he didn't know anything much about it unfortunately. I later sent a followup email and got no reply, I'm reluctant to ask him again because I expect he's a very busy man, given his public position, so hence my thought of seeking answers elsewhere. I suppose there could also be a local vintage car club too (?).

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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Jeff Perkins » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:29 pm

I have a friend who has a very early improved 1926 Tudor. His firewall has the holes for a firewall mounted coil box with very old and hard rubber plugs in them. His actual coil box is in the correct location.
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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by DanTreace » Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:45 pm

Luke

Stanchions are made reproduction, but not in the early 26 style as photo shows.

9143911F-B919-4B77-A212-3DE00B047902.jpeg

GA is a non-title state so owner registered the body style, not the engine. Very common to have different year motors in T’s. Assume yours has the wide clutch and brake pedals, they could have been placed by him in a pre-26 trans to look like Improved Car

Early 26 has these grommets if zinc around the curtain rod holed on the upper door frame.

9143911F-B919-4B77-A212-3DE00B047902.jpeg
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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by GG Gregory » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:48 pm

Dan, my matching numbers Roadster has the manufacturing date of late July 1926 and was titled in 27. It has the zinc around the curtain rod hole. I’m guess since it’s a very early 27 production the zinc is correct.

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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by DanTreace » Tue Feb 04, 2020 4:32 pm

GG

Could be, don’t have the obsolete date on drawing, but likely were gone at start of the 1927 model year. Doors varied on the Improved open cars, several types of inner panels and fasteners and latches.

The print on T-45122X only gives start date and a rev date. The Parts and Body listing says 26-27. so maybe only the later ‘27 when the door panel with raised molding for the rim of the curtain holes were used at assembly plants. Henry doing away with little pieces to keep the Ford America’s lowest price car :) ;)


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Luke » Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:12 pm

Dan, thanks for your info.

Interesting re GA, that would have been useful to know when I was trying to deal with the bureaucracy here! FWIW the car does seem to appear in an online register, its VIN is the engine serial number.

The trans pedals are pre-26 (ie. not wide), so perhaps a complete engine+trans change was done at some stage.

I apologise for the quality of the door photo below, but I don't expect it matters much. It looks to me to be similar to yours except my grommet has been painted.

Jeff, interesting detail, I wonder if that's common?

FWIW I had a look at my firewall but it's fairly pristine, so perhaps it's a little later than your friend's car.


stanchion_base.jpg
door_top.jpg


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by J1MGOLDEN » Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:29 pm

I have a 20 July 1925 engine and transmission with the ears and bolts.

It also had the coil box on the engine.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Gonenorth » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:18 am

If your front axle doesn't match the model, don't be surprised. My 26 Tudor (early December 1925 build) had an earlier axle too. No, it wasn't factory. After crawling underneath and wiping the grime from the ball socket on the pan, it was pretty obvious at some point in its existence by the amount of brazing on the pan, that the car hit something. With the relative interchangeability of T parts and wide availability of the those parts, it was an easy job to slap a new axle (or engine, or rear end, etc) in a car and keep driving it. Might not be a mix and max "restoration" job at all. Best to determine its year by body style anyways. That's how mine is registered and titled here in WI.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by rickd » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:09 am

One more piece of the puzzle; tying into James' info on dates I have a 1925 Touring with a July 1, 1925 engine date. No trans bosses on the engine and the coil box is on the firewall. Its kind of a unique car in that it came with no starter and the ball bearing front wheel set up. It has electric front lights but an oil light on a license plate bracket on the rear. Bought it from the original owners family many years ago. My sense is that it was a little cheaper to order the car without a starter, and maybe a little less showy among the neighbors.


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Re: Improved cars, actual first date of production?

Post by Luke » Sat Feb 08, 2020 5:22 pm

Jim, Kevin, Rick,

Thanks for the continued information. I find it fascinating in general, but also useful to give me a better idea of what I've got.

Kevin, you may be close to what's happened with mine as I had to replace the front chassis gussets prior to registering here. Hard to say whether they were damaged due to crash or old age but if the former, and the engine/trans were also damaged it may well have been why the 'odd' parts I guess.

Rick's machine, with the one family owner, suggests Ford of the time was a little like Land Rover and you could persuade them to do a few different machines as you requested!

I've started looking for old car clubs in GA, near Douglasville and have emailed a few people in the hope that someone could help me along the way of trying to get some history on my car, but so far no responses. Unfortunately unless someone reads the entire email I guess it could look a little like spam if you weren't expecting such an odd enquiry from someone on the other side of the world :|

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