To coat or not to coat?

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MHSprecher
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To coat or not to coat?

Post by MHSprecher » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:08 pm

I removed the gas tank from my 24 T, as has been shared here before. Car has been sitting since the early 1960's, tank drained. It looks quite good inside, at least as much as I can see. There was some rust rattling around in it. I have removed the rust as best I can and I really don't see much still inside. My question is should I have my tank treated and coated inside? The rust inside came from somewhere, but I see no evidence of where the tank might be rusted inside?


tdump
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by tdump » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:45 pm

The rust is probably on a baffle or on the inside top where you cant see it.
IF there is any thing loose in that tank it will stop something up in the fuel system at some point.May be in a couple days or a couple years.Regardless it will mean more work.The last time I used RedKote I had some trouble with it. Seems gasoline disolved it and it clogged the ports of a 5 hp briggs carburator and red stuff oozed out from around gasket surfaces.
I always let the stuff cure for a week or more before I use a tank.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'


Mark Osterman
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Mark Osterman » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:59 pm

I clean with a couple pounds of bbs and detergent. Then flush out well with water followed with an alcohol rinse. Then fill with gas and always have at least 1/3 full to keep the gas sloshing around as you drive.


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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:13 pm

Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Larry Azevedo
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Larry Azevedo » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:57 pm

My grandson and I have used the product from Eastwood (see post link above) in his '27 gas tank and it has worked well. No issues since we coated it 2 years ago.
Larry Azevedo


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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Allan » Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:21 pm

With the tank out and dry, now is the best time to treat it. I add a couple of kilos of tek screws to the tank and then rotate it in a concrete mixer to let the screws scrape of any loose material and rust.
Then the tank is ready to treat. I have had really good results with a three step treatment marketed by POR 15.

Allan from down under.


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MHSprecher
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by MHSprecher » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:42 am

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. As I have the tank out, it seemed that now is the time to do something. The Eastwood kit is cheaper than the POR-15, although you need to buy acetone and muriatic acid to use with the Eastwood kit. I suspect people have used one or the other, not both. If anyone has, please share your experience.

Thanks.

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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Walter Higgins » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:19 am

My vote is for no coating. All coatings fail eventually and most people have trouble painting on an exterior surface that they can readily access. It is extremely difficult to properly clean something entirely concealed, to to mention to then expose that coating to the worst possible environment 24/7 and expect it to last. Have it steam cleaned (real saturated steam, not hot water) until it rinses clear. Install a fine mesh standpipe strainer in the top of the sediment bowl and you could dump a quart of sand inside your tank and not have any trouble. The standpipe strainer keeps the trash in the tank and provides a lot of surface area to drain.

Much of the trash inside a tank doesn't come from the tank itself -- it comes from what is introduced to the tank in the form of junk at the gas station that makes it past the pump filter and old fuel breaking down, so a coating won't prevent that anyway. Keep this in mind -- most new cars now have plastic tanks.... why does the filter need to be changed every 30,000 miles so you don't burn up an expensive fuel pump with a restriction? I have steamed a lot of failed coating jobs from tanks and if you think rust and debris is difficult to remove, try extracting a pint-worth of flaking sheet or gelatinous goo!


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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by John kuehn » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:44 am

I have 3 T’s and count me lucky but the gas tanks in my cars weren’t in bad shape when I acquired them. They had the usual dirt and varnish in them and were pretty much dried up. One had a small amount of rust but no flaking or pitting that I could see.
If a tank has had the cap on it and not left open just a good cleaning and maybe using some pea gravel or something similar, shaking and rolling will work pretty well. It seems like it did for me.
I started to use a sealer of some sort advertised in the vendors catalogs but never did. If a tank haven’t rusted up badly after nearly 80-90 years it will probably be OK for a long as you own the car just being left as is.

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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by paulmikeska » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:48 am

A new tank is about $170.00. About twice the cost of coating the tank that will fail some time down the line. If it was mine I would just buy a new tank. YMMV.

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TWrenn
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by TWrenn » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:55 am

I'm with you Paul. Not worth the trouble, cause you'll never get it completely clean enough, nor coated well enough.
Or, with my luck, the coating will flake off and really cause trouble.
Another member a few years back went through this, I'd like to think my firm stance on it finally convinced him and
he was glad he did. JMO


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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Kenny Edmondson » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:26 pm

Tim and Paul, I had the exact same thoughts. With the baffles in the tank it will be really had to get clean or seal the inside. I always replace any questionable tanks.

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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 4:12 pm

"IF" the tank was not rusty when set side in the 1960's and was dry at tat time - depending on where it was stored an climate conditions - the rust likely from condensation. If the tank was outside the car and the drain &/or gas cap were off there could be something else rattling around inside besides rust. I had thought that the one I had may have been caused by the baffle that was missing from the underside of the gas cap or a tank baffle. I shook the heck out of it, several times, each time retrieving the culprits (photo). Even small loose rust should slide under the baffles to the gas cap end for retrieval. Note the size of the mud wasp nests that I got out via shake, rattle and roll. I filled the tank with white vinegar (cleaning grade) to dissolve the remainder nest that was too big and wouldn't break (powder that is in the dish). The dish is 4w x 6l x 3h. The vinegar also dissolved some powdery rust in the tank . If you can't get what is in the tank to get under a baffle then its bigger than one of those wasps nests!
There really isn't any point in sealing the loose debris too.
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Oldav8tor » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:30 pm

My tank had dried fuel gum and rust. I cleaned and coated mine using the PQR 15 process, very carefully sloshing on the final coating to be sure it covered everything. It took a few days as I let the cleaner set in different position so it got to all areas. I also installed a finger screen in the gascolator inlet so any flakes would have to be pretty deep in the bottom of the tank to stop the fuel flow. I've put 1600 miles on the car without problem. When I examine the bottom of the tank it appears to be as clean as when I finished the coating process.
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dobro1956
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by dobro1956 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:26 pm

OK, Here is my 2 cents worth, and probably not worth that.

In years past replacing the gas tank was usually the best choice. Unless it is a tank that is not reproduced, in the long run replacing was always best.
"BUT" the repro tanks made today are not as good as repro tanks made aprox. 5 years ago or older. The reason is the unavailability to get "tin plate" material to make the tanks with. I had a discussion with the "tank manufacture" about 5 years ago. At that time I was having him custom make my gas tank for the speedster project. His shop is about 2 hours from me so I went to his shop to do the order in person. At that time he had two sheets of "tin plate" material left, and was unable to find anymore. My speedster tank was made using part of the last sheets. After that all gas tanks have been made with regular galvanized material. All the tanks he now makes are just as "high quality" as they have ever been, as to "looks" But they are not nearly as "rust proof" as they used to be. I have seen a couple of the "new galvanized" tanks have enough rust on the inside to clog up the carb with very fine rust (from the tank) not from the gas station. Using alcohol gas is one of the major parts of the problem. Alcohol will hold water in suspension in direct contact with the tank. It also condenses to the inside top of the tank as water droplets. The old "tin plate" could handle the water for a long time, but the new galvanizing is so thin, that it breaks down very quickly. It is not the tank manufactures fault, It is only because of lack of material.

Now with all that said, lining of the tanks may start to be a better looking alternative. I have a friend who owns a body shop/restoration shop for old cars. Between the two of us we have probably lined over 100 gas tanks. The only product we will use is Por 15. Use the entire kit and do not try to cut corners. Preparation is the whole key to doing a job that will last. Use short drywall screws in the tank and strap it to a cement mixer, the rear wheel of your riding lawnmower, or ??? let the screws do the work of "picking" all the corners clean. Count the screws "going in" and "coming out". Then use the degreaser as the directions say to do. Then last use the metal etch also as the directions say to do. The metal etch will leave a slightly acidic surface after it is all flushed out. That is crucial to the liner sticking. Then make sure the tank is absolutely dry after cleaning and flushing. Use of a blow dryer, or heat gun really speeds up the drying. Last step is also very important. You will pour the liner into the tank and then turn the tank till the entire inside is covered. When you think the entire inside is covered, continue rotating the tank for at least as long as you just did. Do not get lazy at this time. After your arms feel like they are going to fall off, drain all the excess liner into a glass mason jar and use a new lid. The extra liner material is plenty to do a small engine gas tank, or motorcycle tank. It will last for years in a glass jar. Now comes the hard part. If you just set the tank somewhere to dry, most of the remaining" liner will "sag" to the bottom of the tank. So you need to rotate the tank to different positions about every 10 to fifteen minutes for several hours. At the body shop we put the liner in the tank at the start of the day, and everyone in the shop rotates the tank all day long. Someone is responsible to make sure it is at least every 15 minutes, but everyone else helps keep it rotating to different positions. You also can use a flashlight to look inside and watch the liner move and sag to where it is needed. I pay close attention to the seams.

This may seem like a lot of work, but so far we have had zero failures in over 10 years and maybe even longer. I can not really remember when we started using the Por 15 but it was over 10 years ago. We also use the leftover Por 15 as a gas line thread dope. Just paint it on the threads and assemble, Never had a connection leak yet. If you want to use just a little bit of the Por 15 in the glass jar. Use a small nail or ice pick to poke a small hole or two in the lid. Drain the amount you want into a small container, and then use a sheet metal screw, screwed into the nail/ice pick holes, to seal the holes. Make sure to leave some Por 15 around the holes to seal the screws. Then cover the heads of the screws with a little more Por 15. I have a jar I have been using over 5 years and its still good to use. So that was my 2 cents worth, or whatever it may be worth.

Have fun and be safe ...


dmdeaton
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by dmdeaton » Tue Feb 18, 2020 8:38 am

I have been through this with 2 model a tanks and if someone made new A tanks I would buy 2 and give them a hug. I am buying a new one for my speedster and not looking back.


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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:23 pm

I would not have recommended POR if I had not used it. The Kit I use and endorse is the product in the link I supplied. It is made by the POR folks and is solely for cleaning, prepping, and sealing tanks.

The last tank I did spanned 8 days between repositioning to soak, etc. In dry Wyoming, I let the tank sit for 3 days and monitored humidity at the fill opening with a room hygrometer and did not start the "seal" part of the process until it showed that inside the tank was at 20%, which is what it was in the shop.

This tank was a Torpedo tank, fully painted, just out of a museum where it sat with fetid fuel and water 3" deep for 40 years. The rust-cicles hung 1/2" from the inside. During the process it cleaned up so well that I discovered a: that previously the tank had rotted through the bottom and someone skillfully soldered on a large copper sheet onto the outside and b: that this created a captured layer between the old 'outside' of the tank and the new 'inside' formed by the patch, since they "skinned" over the entire bottom and did NOT cut out the rot. After the tank was dry, a good deal of corruption was able to be vacuumed out of all the loose bits left by the etch. Nearly all of which percolated out from between the two layers of tank bottom.

Once sealed, the tank was allowed to sit and cure for 3-4 days before being put into service.

I've used this product multiple times over the years and have never been disappointed. If you value originality, wish to keep some $$ in your pocket and not buy a new tank, and are willing to follow the instructions, you will be pleased with the results. If you wish to save even more $$ and buy an unbranded knock-off sealer, that's your choice, but not my recommendation.

If I felt someone was incapable or unwilling to follow instructions on this product AND owned a 1913 T which requires the body to be lifted up to liberate the tank, then I'd say "Buy New", as failure is more costly than the price of the product.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


dmdeaton
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by dmdeaton » Tue Feb 18, 2020 3:09 pm

I used the POR with my 2 tanks and all is well so far. I just don't like the idea of a epoxy liner. It works as good as you clean the inside surfaces. Like any other glue, paint, or epoxy, surface prep is the key. It is not like lining the tank with a plastic bladder, as you cannot see all the surfaces well enough to know all is coated evenly. Especially if there are slosh chambers included in the mix. Again, I would use it again, and follow directions like Scott says.


Mike Royster
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by Mike Royster » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:33 am

I've used Kwik Poly for years on car gas tanks and hit and miss engine tanks with great results. I get my tank clean first then dry it, and once your pour the 2 part epoxy in you have to start spinning it immediately as it sets up in minutes. It's great stuff!


GG Gregory
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Re: To coat or not to coat?

Post by GG Gregory » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:41 am

If you’ve got a 26-27 tank you have no choice but to coat.

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