Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

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Rich Eagle
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Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Rich Eagle » Mon Mar 02, 2020 3:33 pm

ScrpBk05.jpg
As I read it "Daddy at the Saloon in Dupuyer Montana. Taken Unawares." He was a Methodist Minister but went where ever he was needed. Interesting to me are the later fenders on what appears to be a 1914 Runabout. I'm not sure if it is Grand dad's car. I haven't seen other photos of it.
Dupuyer is North of Great Falls along U.S. Route 89 and claimed 86 residents as of the 2010 census.
Just another photo showing the quiet West in that era.
When did I do that?


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by old_charley » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:36 pm

Interesting thought about the rear fenders, Rich. The photo isn't clear enough for me to be able to tell if the fenders are flat across or crowned. Given that the '15 sedans and couplelets were built while the tourings and roadsters were still of the '14 style, I would think it possible that a '14 bodied roadster or touring could have been assembled with the new style rear fenders. Has anyone ever come across this before?

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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:51 pm

I was assuming the original fenders got damaged and replaced. But anything could have happened. It was Montana! :?
When did I do that?


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Luke » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:10 pm

I had a go at cleaning up the image and enhancing it to see if one could get more any more detail.

Unfortunately the original isn't all that high a resolution (do you have a better scan Rich?), and I was probably a bit aggressive with some of the tweaks but here it is FWIW:

saloon.jpg

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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by George House » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:19 pm

Why couldn’t it be a ‘15 runabout with carbide lamps ? That’s obviously an acetylene headlamp and acetylene tank on the runningboard. The rear fender is not crowned.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people 🤪


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:26 pm

George

'13 - '14 windshield and a '13 rear roll-up rear window. Earlier than '15...
Scott Conger

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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:37 pm

I can't do much better. The windshield and cowl are no later than '14. I can't see side lamps and am not sure I see a tail lamp. The rough Montana roads may have shaken them loose.
SBk05.jpg
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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by perry kete » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:51 pm

If you spend enough time in the saloon with daddy you don't care if the fenders are original or not! :o
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by old_charley » Tue Mar 03, 2020 7:30 pm

I'll call the car a '14 due to the bowed windshield support rods. Maybe the owner decided to update the look and put later fenders on.


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:34 pm

Certainly an interesting car. Agree, '14 rear folding windshield and dogleg supports. Can't be sure about the rear fenders being crowned or not. Another possible option is that 1915 was NOT the first year for curved rear fenders (and I am not referring to the 1911 roadsters!). The 1912 open and torpedo roadsters had flat curved rear fenders with more of an inner skirt than the later fenders had (I need a pair). The basic upper and outer shape and position to attach to the running board for the '12 roadster was the same as the '15/'16 fenders, unlike the '11 roadster fenders which were an entirely different thing. However, zooming in I think, but cannot be sure, that these are not the '12 roadster fenders.
Most '13s and earlier '14s had no "bill" on the front fenders which these do have. That may indicate that the runabout is a late '14? It also could mean that all the fenders were changed fairly early? It should also be pointed out that some late '13s got '14 style folding windshields, evidenced by numerous late '13 survivors and late '13 photographs showing new cars so equipped.
There is evidence, not thoroughly confirmed, that some very early '15 style production did get the '14 style rear fenders (flat on the top). Again some survivor cars, and a very few early photographs, not enough to call a trend. Both styles were being produced for about five months. It is entirely possible that fenders could have crossed over either direction at any time during those five months.
As for the couplette and sedan fenders for the late calendar 1914? I don't know enough about the early couplettes. Don't know what fenders they used on them. I do KNOW about the early center-door sedans They used a unique rear fender, Used only on less than one thousand sedans produced in late '14 and the first half of '15 (with maybe a little carryover to the earliest '16 center-door sedans. The early '16 I had years ago had such rear fenders on it! However, given the car's sketchy history, I would never swear they were original to the car. I am fairly sure those in this picture are not the early sedan fenders. And I "think" the early couplettes used basically the same fenders that touring cars and runabouts used in early '15 production.

Nice car! Wish I knew the whole story.
Thank you for sharing!

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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by JTT3 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:39 pm

It may just be me but I think I can make out the sharp corners of a 13 turtle deck.


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Rich Bingham » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:58 pm

Thanks for sharing the photo, Rich. Intriguing little puzzle the Model T presents, but I think I’m more taken with the view of Dupuyer, and the humor in labeling it “daddy at the saloon”, given that your grandfather Hutt was a Methodist minister. “Taken unaware” adds to the fun. I don’t suppose your mother took the photo ? How wonderful you have these family treasures!
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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by TRDxB2 » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:20 pm

hope this helps
Attachments
ScrpBk05.jpg
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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by StanHowe » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:22 pm

Dupuyer is about 100 miles north of me. It is pronounced do PUY er, is just a small village on the south side of the Blackfeet reservation. Off to the west there are some huge ranches, several wilderness outfitter operations and a LOT of wilderness since it sits to the south and east of the Bob Marshall Wilderness. Access there is by horse or foot, it does have an airstrip at Benchmark which will pucker all but the best pilots -- you'd better be there early in the morning or late at night, be underloaded, know mountain air currents and have a plane built for flying in and out of airstrips like it. The cost for a Helicopter to come in and bring the bodies and the wreckage out is pretty high. The Bob is the home of the largest Grizzly population in America, they are a constant problem for the ranchers this time of year as they are coming out of hibernation and are hungry. They WILL eat you, as is proven every once in awhile by people who thought bear spray would stop them.

Dupuyer creek runs off to the west with some of the best scenery in Montana, the road going North hits the Blackfeet reservation a few miles away and after crossing the rez comes into Browning, the headquarters of the rez. West of Browning is Glacier Park.

Dupuyer is a nice little town. There is one of the best places in Montana to eat, Joe's Steakhouse or something like that, people come from all over western Montana and of course a lot of tourists hit the place.

It has never been without a bar since prohibition and may not have been without one then. When alcohol sales were prohibited on the reservation or to Native Americans, it was the source of supply, a place to go listen to Country Music and dance. A lot of Blackfeet live in the area so there are a lot of great musicians, a lot of great cowboys and some gorgeous ranches that are some Native owned and some non-Native owned. My band and I played there several times over the years, the old bar with the good dance floor burned down, the new place has no dance floor but they do have some outdoor dances in the summer at a pavilion.

As I recall, although it's been awhile since I drove around town, there is a Catholic church and a Protestant church still in operations, there is a grade school and a bed and breakfast plus the usual small town businesses, a gas station, farm supply, etc.

If you ever get a chance to take the drive from Helena to Glacier, take the turn at Wolf Creek and follow it to Augusta, Choteau, Bynam, Dupuyer and Browning. You can drive for miles without meeting another car, the road is recently rebuilt, wide and smooth with only a moderate hill once in awhile and photo opportunities at every turn. The Rockies to the west are magnificent, the wheat fields and ranches with cattle are spectacular and of course, there are the Montana sunrises and sunsets if you are traveling that time of day. There is a small RV park in Dupuyer where you can stay overnight, eat at the steakhouse, watch the sunset and the sunrise and be on your way.


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by StanHowe » Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:28 pm

I couldn't find my photos of flying in and out of Benchmark or any of Dupuyer but here is one I took a few years ago for an auction brochure for an auction we had a ways south of there. Sorry about the Volkswagon, the mountains are of the Bob Marshall wilderness off to the west.
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2016 4 17 414 auction 048.JPG


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Luke » Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:52 pm

StanHowe wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:22 pm
.... Access there is by horse or foot, it does have an airstrip at Benchmark which will pucker all but the best pilots -- you'd better be there early in the morning or late at night, be underloaded, know mountain air currents and have a plane built for flying in and out of airstrips like it. The cost for a Helicopter to come in and bring the bodies and the wreckage out is pretty high. The Bob is the home of the largest Grizzly population in America, they are a constant problem for the ranchers this time of year as they are coming out of hibernation and are hungry. They WILL eat you, as is proven every once in awhile by people who thought bear spray would stop them.
Being a pilot (with a particular interest in old, slow, 'planes - and rural airstrips) you had me quite keen until the bit about the bears :shock:

Otherwise thanks for the background information. Particularly for those of us on the other side of the world it provides great context to the photo and the life Rich's relative must have experienced back then.

Also, at the risk of being labelled a heretic on this site, it's nice to see the 'dubby - one of my other favourite cars (I'm down to my last one now, it [Gerald] being the same age as me :-).


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by StanHowe » Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:47 pm

Typed this once on my phone but as usual it wouldn't load to this site and dumped it. Oh well,

Luke, a friend of mine with thousands of hours and a beautiful Ryan took off from there in mid afternoon, couldn't gain enough altitude to clear the trees, stalled it trying to climb, it went in tail down, hit the trees and flipped nose first into the forest. They brought in a military helicopter to haul the wreckage out and added his name to the list of old, bold pilots who forget about elevation, temperature, air currents and fickle winds in the mountains.

I never flew in and out of there without a pretty good pucker. There is no turnout for a go-around until you have several hundred feet of elevation and speed enough to make a tight turn without a wing stall. I never flew in there with my 150 but was in and out several times with my Piper Pacer. It had an O-320 conversion, droop tips, a STOL kit and only two seats, baggage in the rear, 60 gallons fuel and was a good performer but those big trees and the rocks behind them come up pretty fast on climb out. I saw guys take off with 100 feet of runway behind them, rolling before full power and with 3 passengers and wondered how they did it. Not all of them did, I guess, from the list of names. I always turned on to the very end of the runway, full brakes, full power, release brakes and hope the sucker flies!! It always did. I also never went in or out after 10 AM or before an hour before dark. Like the ocean, the sky is unforgiving.

Going in, you need to make a low pass to run the Deer, Elk, Bears, whatever, off the runway so you don't hit one on rollout, be ready for full throttle for a go-around and come in pretty hot so you can clear the trees at the end of the runway if you do have to go around. The first couple times I was in there I did several touch and goes just to get a feel for the place.

I think now you have to have permission to use the strip, when I was flying it was pretty busy ferrying fishermen, supplies for the pack trains and guys who wanted to brag about having been in and out of Benchmark.

Anyway, there is a nice flat field at Dupuyer that is owned by a local farmer, used to see planes there all the time, probably still some there.


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Thu Mar 05, 2020 1:26 am

I have never flown myself. Would like to, but couldn't afford it and had higher priorities for my limited time and money. One of my cousins, who is also a close friend as well, flew quite a lot and had his own plane most of his adult life. An interesting thing is, he is the cousin I sometimes mention who's father was killed in his private plane crash when I was twelve. He is a much better pilot than his dad was.
Many years ago, at some family function, he was talking about flying and some mountain airport he had flown into a few times. (I wish I could remember where it was?) There was a windsock on the side of a cliff. Coming in to land, a pilot needed to fly by and look at the windsock to make sure the prevailing winds were in their "normal" state. Normal state meant the windsock was flowing straight UP! The usual prevailing winds came in low and blew up the cliff. If a pilot aimed for the runway in a normal manner, the winds would kick the plane up about a hundred feet and the pilot would have to circle around and try again. To land, the pilot needed to aim for the cliff about 30 to 50 feet below the edge of the runway and the winds would pop the plane up to a windy turbulent but smooth landing! He laughed that he had to try it several times before being bold enough to actually aim for the cliff! But it was a place he liked, so flew in numerous times later. He also said that when he went in to land, he kept an eye glued onto that windsock to make sure the winds didn't suddenly shift or die down just as he approached.


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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by StanHowe » Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:02 am

Scary!! There is a strip in Idaho that you come up the river, NOT DOWN because of the prevailing wind, just before you get to the landing zone you cut the power, pull the flaps and pull the nose up because there is about 400 feet of runway at about a 20 degree slope and you need to be in a good climb when you set the wheels down. To take off you taxi to the top of the slope, set the air, give it full power with the stick back, turn it loose and hope it is flying when you get to the river so you can turn UP the river between the cliffs on each side, gain enough altitude and when it widens out a little, turn around and head back down the river to get back to town. It's not bad once you've been in there a time or two but don't bring your 182 or some six passenger rig built for cross country speed. With a tail dragger and some power it is plenty of runway as long as you remember to turn when you get to the river and not before or after. It is a little scary giving it full power with a solid rock cliff straight ahead of you across the canyon. If you have big power you can turn with the wind but if you fly stuff like I did you'd better turn in to the wind and hope it kept flying. My Pacer had Tundra tires which slow you down a little in the air but really make it nice for landing in places like that and give you more takeoff speed and more control on the ground than those itty bitty tires town planes have.

Guy that took me in there the first time kept up a running litany of who got killed where in the canyon. I'm not sure how much was true but I'm sure some of it was.

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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Kaiser » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:37 am

Family of mine own a resort/RV park/harbour near Campbell River BC on Vancouver Island , they know i'm allways up for a good adventure so when i visited a couple years back they told me to take a flight with the mail plane on the wednesday, which is 'social security check day' in Canada.
The mailplane delivers the checks to the most remote little islands and inlets to get the people their checks.
The pilot was one of those proverbial bush pilots of the area, he told me that apart from a three year stint in Alaska he had flown Canadas West all his flying career, he was 68 years of age,
We flew that great bushplane the De Haviland Beaver with floats, and i got the privilege to fly from the right seat.
The guy told me he couldn't remember flying wheels but he changed over to skis every once in a while when winter got really harsh.
That man took that plane all morning into and out of places i couldn't believe and he did it with absolute confidence, he told me where he looked for currents and eddies, how to take time and tide into consideration and how the wind can really surprise you in those tight canyons between the islands on Canadas West Coast.
It was an unforgetable morning and one of the best memories ever, the scenery was unbelievable but after the flight and thanking the pilot profusely for bringing us back in one piece i did go to the restroom to check my underwear, luckily all was good but i definitely had some pucker moments that morning :lol:
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
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Re: Old Photo - "Daddy at the Saloon"

Post by Luke » Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:16 pm

All these aviation stories remind me of another forum I belong to!

Stan, I wonder if you have the co-ordinates of the [scary] Dupuyer airstrip you're talking about? I had a quick look around but wasn't really sure of where to settle on.

I think it's extremely unlikely I'd ever fly in there, let alone get to the U.S., but it's interesting to me all the same. By the sound of it I agree it's not something to take a standard 150 into, my personal weapon of choice would probably be a Cub - I assume it's not long enough for a Dak?

Some years ago I used to fly into a paddock just down the valley from my farm at the head. Probably not as tight as this strip by the sounds of it, and I had the option of going under the lines at the end of the field if lift was low, but it was a little tricky with various large lumps of rock close by etc...

Anyway enough of this on the Model T forum, but if you should ever get down to this part of the world there's some great flying to be had - we specialise in mountains, glaciers and beaches amongst other things :-)

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