MTFCA Forum

First, I want to say that I really appreciate this site and all of those who contribute regularly to it. There is a staggering amount of knowledge here and I have had innumerable questions answered by searching around here over the last couple of years. Thank you.

I have a question regarding "numbers-matching" cars. Here is the situation:

I purchased a nice '26 Touring car. It's an older restoration that shows a little age here and there, but is very straight and wearing shiny black paint that presents really well. It's just a very solid and honest car that has spent it's life with a series of long-term, caring owners. Through the process of inspecting the numbers on the car vs the number on the title, I discovered that the chassis number and the engine number match one another (and the title of course)

I guess my question is, in 2020, almost 100 years after the fact, is it as rare/odd as I think it is that this car still has it's original engine and chassis? It just seems like over that period of time, so many things could have happened that would have resulted in the engine being replaced, or similar. After all, for a long time, these were "just cars", tools really.

Are there a lot of cars like this still floating around/available today? And does "numbers matching" impact the value of a Model T in any real way? (I will be selling the car) Or is it more a matter of "oh that's neat that those match" and that's about it?

Are there a lot of guys with similar cars here on this site?

I'm mostly just curious as I don't "live" specifically in the Model T world. I have had a few, but am mostly interested in early V8 stuff, especially 36 Ford. I'm still learning the nuances of the world of Model T's as I go along, there certainly is a lot to know.

For reference, here is the car I purchased, hope you like it:

Model Ts are not Corvettes. The only matching numbers need to be the title and either a DMV-applied VIN, or the engine. My opinion, and it is only an opinion, is that matching numbers on a T lends very little value. Earlier cars in facr, had no frame number, so the "matching numbers" thing is moot. Yes, lots of cars got engine swaps, but remember, there were 15 million made. Some just came through intact. Also consider that by the time this car was made, it was extremely behind the automotive curve and obsolete the day it was designed. I think an awful lot of the later cars did not necessarily see the service necessary to wear out an engine to destruction. Yours is a fortunate survivor that has been loved and taken care of for its life and I expect that will continue.

That is a very nice looking car. Welcome to the hobby.

Jake,

My 27 TT has the title matching the engine and frame number original to the truck. I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon but there are definitely cars out there that have replacement engines which the originals somewhere in a scrap heap.

My 2¢
Brad

Jake

As others posted, matching frame number and engine block on a T made after Dec 1925 (when frame stamps were first done) is nice, and there are many out there that have same. As for extra value, well no.

Top value would come from all the parts being from the same are very near production date of the motor, meaning all the body parts and chassis parts. With all in top condition, and having very little or no add-ons or mods from factory.

Then for the best of value, the same nicely restored, with an award from judging club, perhaps the top restored car awarded that year at a national meet.

Jake,
Another opinion regarding your inquiry; I have a 26 Runabout and a 27 PU and a few years ago owned a very original 27 Tudor. The 27 Tudor had matching frame and engine numbers and I found that to be a very special thing about that car. I value the historical research on our cars and there was something unique about being able to clearly date that car, and to know that the original engine was in it. Did it add to the monetary value? Probably not, but it certainly added to the collectability of the car for me. That Tudor is sitting in a small Minnesota County museum now for others to enjoy.

Be careful, you might catch the Model T bug if you keep hanging around this site. Enjoy! ps-very nice car you have.

In the world of Model T’s I would suppose a 09 2 pedal T that still had the original engine and almost all original body that was with it from the factory might be more valuable than a pieced together 09 with the correct parts. But that’s a guess on my part.

My '27 touring has matching numbers but when I got it the engine for it was sitting in a corner and the engine in the car had a '25 serial number. The '25 engine ran fine but I thought it was well worth the effort to rebuild the '27 motor and put it back where it belonged! Is it more valuable that way? Who cares, it works for me!

I think there's value in it, whether it's in terms of money or otherwise.

If you had your car sitting side-by-side with another '26 that had mismatched numbers and both were in basically equal condition and I could choose between the two, I would choose yours. There will be others to whom that does not matter, but if we lived in a world that was only populated by people who didn't care about such things, than your question never would have materialized in the first place.

Neat car!

There were many after market blocks made by Ford. These came with no engine number on them and the owner could stamp the original number on the block. Another thing would be to grind off the original number from a block and stamp the vin on the side of the block. Same goes for the number stamped on the frame. Most frames have been repainted and the number might have been obliterated. It would take an expert to determine exactly whether the numbers actually match or whether they have been changed to match. You can also tell by the casting numbers on the block sometimes the date the engine was manufactured and if you are well acquainted with dates changes in the body were made, you might have some idea whether the engine was original, but even then, depending on the factory which assembled the cars dates might not be the same because they were likely to use up parts before making changes.
In a very few cases, the original owners might have been able to provide information as to whether the car had been changed over the years, but the original owners have already died and maybe a few present day owners have inherited the cars and knew the story.
Norm

I don't think anyone has ever made the case that numbers matching (legitimately) is a deterrent. Right hand drive, in the American market might not be offset by them but likely a big plus in other markets. Still a very cool car, don't see many 26-27 with cowl lights.

Walter

I'd make the exact same choice as you (I just wouldn't pay much if anything extra to make the pick). In the "all things being equal" world the matching # car would be the prefered choice over a car which might be a marriage. If later T's had any sort of value like is more typical in collector cars, it would be a much bigger deal to me, particularly because it would be a much bigger deal to a potential buyer if I had to sell (4 T's so far and no desire to sell, so there is that...). :

I just wanted to say thank you to all who chimed in with their input, I appreciate it and even learned a few things along the way!

The answers I received here are right in line with what I had suspected, and I do appreciate the verification from the T experts!

Thanks again guys

Jake

I don’t think it is rare. I have two 1926 T’s with matching numbers. A coupe and a Fordor. Though it is not really rare, I believe, for most, it is more desirable to have matching numbers. If given a choice, I would prefer matching numbers. Had my Fordor not had matching numbers, I would not have bought it in 2004. With the coupe it didn’t matter in 1970, for at 16, I didn’t know the difference, but I lucked out with it having matching numbers. Jim Patrick