Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:02 am

It is maddening when that one little part vanishes from the planet and you don't have a spare. In this case the part in question is the little valve spring seat pin (#3057). In my 3000 parts drawer I found plenty of seats, but not one pin. So I'm wondering if a piece of the same diameter drill bit would be OK. Hard enough? Not too brittle?
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Original Smith » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:04 am

A nail would probably work for awhile, but have you tried drill rod, or better yet Langs?

User avatar

Topic author
Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:11 am

Yes, I can get it from Lang's or any of the parts dealers. But I want to use the car this weekend. I'm sure a nail would be too soft. That's why I asked about drill stock.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Dropacent
Posts: 3384
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Morsher
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925TT, 1926 Martin-Parry bodied wagon, 1927 mercury bodied speedster
Location: Norwalk Ohio

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Dropacent » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:12 am

Chinese metallurgy is a crapshoot at best, IMHO. If I was in a hurry, I’d use the end of a drill that is snug ( drill rod) and still sleep at night. Grandpa would use a nail and sleep good at night, too.
Last edited by Dropacent on Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

John E. Guitar
Posts: 467
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:52 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Guitar
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring, 1924 Tourer
Location: Ulladulla
Board Member Since: 2012

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by John E. Guitar » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:14 am

Yes, a quality drill bit will be fine. I know someone here in Sydney who has had drill bits as retainer pins in his tourer for the last ten years/20,000 plus kilometers without any issues. He did this as he found the repro pins were to soft. I don't know if the current repro ones are better or the same.

You could also use Silver Steel which may end up cheaper if you have to replace every pin.

User avatar

Topic author
Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:37 am

It's very likely I have some originals somewhere, but it will probably be weeks or months before I find them. For now I'll go with a piece of drill bit.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


jiminbartow
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Patrick
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Coupe
Location: Bartow, FL
MTFCA Number: 50126
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:41 am

You could take an ungalvanized nail of the right diameter, cut it to size, heat it red hot with a torch and temper it in oil. Jim Patrick
Last edited by jiminbartow on Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.


Wayne Sheldon
Posts: 3637
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:13 pm
First Name: Wayne
Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:44 am

I have used snug fitting nails for a long time. I did have a few about thirty years ago that the nails were too hard, and fractured. No problems since.

User avatar

Kaiser
Posts: 1028
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:32 am
First Name: Leo
Last Name: van Stirum
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver
Location: Netherlands
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Kaiser » Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:49 am

The cheap chinese drillbits are too brittle, but an older US made one is probably o.k., you can allways check by clamping the drillbit in the vice with the cutting tip and give it a light rap with a hammer, if it breakes readily, toss it, if it holds up, cut to length with a cutting disk and presto ! it'll probably outlive you :)
When in trouble, do not fear, blame the second engineer ! 8-)
Leo van Stirum, Netherlands
'23 Huckster, '66 CJ5 daily driver

User avatar

tinman080
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:36 am
First Name: gary
Last Name: hammond
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 roadster
Location: forest, va
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by tinman080 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:48 am

Kaiser X 2.... :D
''Just Passin' Thru.....Slowly! :D

User avatar

perry kete
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 am
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Seth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Coupe 1927 Touring
Location: Jefferson Ohio

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by perry kete » Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:53 am

Steve
I have used drill bit ends for valve pins and they work very well. In a pinch I cut off the end of bits that I use every day and now they are just little shorter. I put them in a vise and placed a white rag directly under it on the bench and the small pin falls on the rag. A dremel tool works great for cutting
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring

User avatar

Mark Nunn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Nunn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
Location: Bennington, NE
MTFCA Number: 50321
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Mark Nunn » Wed Mar 11, 2020 8:57 am

I know where your pins are, Steve. They're in that box with your speedometer. In fact, I think one of my lug nuts that disappeared a few years ago is in there too. My apologies. I'm not helping the conversation.

User avatar

Charlie B in N.J.
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:40 am
First Name: CHARLIE
Last Name: BRANCA
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: "27 Tudor / "23 Touring
Location: Brick N.J.
MTFCA Number: 28967
Board Member Since: 2010

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:02 am

Steve all you have to do is go ahead with the drill bit piece and button the engine up. About 5 minutes later that box of missing pins will show up.
Forget everything you thought you knew.


Philip
Posts: 238
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:09 pm
First Name: Philip
Last Name: Thompson
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 touring
Location: Graham NC

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Philip » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:03 am

im not a metallurgist but the end of a good drill should work great they are hard on the outside about 60r and still
have some soft core to prevent breaking. again good ones not harbor freight go to fastenal and buy a pack. philip

User avatar

DLodge
Posts: 594
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:14 pm
First Name: Dick
Last Name: Lodge
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
Location: St. Louis MO
MTFCA Number: 19659
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by DLodge » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:04 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:37 am
It's very likely I have some originals somewhere, but it will probably be weeks or months before I find them.
It won't be weeks or months. You will find them the Monday morning after the weekend when you need them.

User avatar

TFan
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Jim
Last Name: Riedy
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 Roadster
Location: Sandusky,Ohio
MTFCA Number: 25079
MTFCI Number: 18732
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by TFan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:13 am

I have asked this before but no response, would the bearing pins out of a later model u-joint work or would they be to brittle. Jim
Back road kinda guy stuck on the freeway of life.


jiminbartow
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Patrick
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Coupe
Location: Bartow, FL
MTFCA Number: 50126
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:39 am

Tfan. Jim. I may be misunderstanding how your question regarding a u-joint pin pertains to this thread, but the pin this thread refers to is one of the eight valve spring retainer pins that goes into the hole at the base of each shaft of the intake and exhaust valves that secures the valve springs. The pins are approximately 3/32” diameter x 3/8” long. That may be why you have not gotten a response. Jim Patrick
Last edited by jiminbartow on Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Scott_Conger » Wed Mar 11, 2020 11:43 am

If a file "zings" off the pin it is likely too hard/brittle. If if scratches the pin it's too soft. If it just marks it, I think it would be fine. Personally I'd find a drill bit that fit, polish it and anneal it to JUST blue and test it. It should be fine for the trip but I would plan on eventually replacing with a good correct pin eventually.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured


jab35
Posts: 892
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:28 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Bartsch
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '26 Coupe
Location: Dryden, NY 13053
MTFCA Number: 30615
MTFCA Life Member: YES

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by jab35 » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:10 pm

Follow Scott's suggestions, and if you try needle bearing 'pins' from discarded modern u-joints, follow the same guidelines. Nails don't have enough carbon to be heat treated, common nails would be a last ditch and very temporary emergency fix. Drive Careful! jb


jiminbartow
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Patrick
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Coupe
Location: Bartow, FL
MTFCA Number: 50126
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:24 pm

TFan Jim. I understand your question now. I believe you were referring to the pins from a new fourth bearing that replaces the old babbited fourth bearing. Jim Patrick

User avatar

Topic author
Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Steve Jelf » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:54 pm

Now here's another question. How good (or bad) are the current reproductions from the parts dealers? Several years ago some folks posted that they would use only original pins because the new ones wore out quickly. Are the current pins any better? At 25¢ each they should be perfect.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

perry kete
Posts: 1563
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:46 am
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Seth
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1922 Coupe 1927 Touring
Location: Jefferson Ohio

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by perry kete » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:58 pm

Steve,

The reason I switched to quality drill bit stock is when I redid my motor the pins I bought from a supplier lasted only about a month until I had to replace them. Some were bent and other broke. If I remember the suppliers were having an issue with the manufacture at the time.
1922 Coupe & 1927 Touring

User avatar

Tim Rogers
Posts: 387
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:04 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Rogers
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 Coupe & 1923 Runabout
Location: South of the Adirondacks
Board Member Since: 2013

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Tim Rogers » Wed Mar 11, 2020 2:34 pm

metal-hardness-chart.png
<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>

User avatar

TFan
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:24 pm
First Name: Jim
Last Name: Riedy
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 Roadster
Location: Sandusky,Ohio
MTFCA Number: 25079
MTFCI Number: 18732
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by TFan » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:27 am

Jiminbartow., By later I meant 50's- 60's this is what I had in mind. Jim
IMG_1876.JPG
Back road kinda guy stuck on the freeway of life.


JSteele
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:25 am
First Name: John P.
Last Name: Steele
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Roadster
Location: Montana
MTFCA Number: 374
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 137

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by JSteele » Thu Mar 12, 2020 3:44 pm

So in looking at the chart that Tim posted is that saying that Red Brass and Phospher Bronze would be good choices for pins?
I ask because I have 16 valve Roof heads that uses stock T valves but have heavier valve springs and a very high lift cams. I have not run these engines yet and have always thought about this a being a very very weak link. Dropping a valve in one of these might cause a grown man to cry. There is no room for larger valves and I have been unable to find a replacement valve with a more modern keeper that fits.


Scott_Conger
Posts: 6428
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '13, '15, '19, '23
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Scott_Conger » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:04 pm

John

there is no material shown on that chart which would be good for pins

It is generic in information and does not include a multitude of alloys nor various treatment states for those alloys

For example, the category "steel" is even missing, which would include Hot Rolled, Cold Rolled either of which includes a myriad of alloys, uses and tempers

You'd be well served by consulting anyone of several engine builders and Horsepower guys that frequent the forum, with your question. I'm with you, it's not a subject you want to guess at.

Personally, I'd use a valve which uses wedge and collar keepers and not pins, for an overhead
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scott Conger

Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny

NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured

User avatar

Topic author
Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Mar 12, 2020 4:12 pm

I made a pin by just cutting a piece off the top end of a 7/64" drill bit. Today I stopped at the Fastenal store to order a 36" piece of drill rod, priced at $3.13 on the Fastenal website, just to have the material on hand for future use. The manager informed me that it would come from the manufacturer with a shipping charge several times the cost of the item. No sale. I'll pick one up sometime when I'm in Wichita. :)
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


2nighthawks
Posts: 406
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:53 am
First Name: Harold
Last Name: Schwendeman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 Roadster Pickup, '26 Touring, '27 Depot Hack, '23 Roadster
Location: Seattle
MTFCA Number: 0
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:18 pm

Not to "cloud" the issue here, but over the years, I've seen another example of severe wear, that (unless I've missed it) nobody in this thread has mentioned. In all my years of "messing" with these old Fords, I've seen the original cupped style valve spring seats (retainers) with very deep grooves worn almost all the way through from those little pins continually bearing in the same position for many miles and many years. I would think that depending on the type of pin material and hardness, might actually cause this type of wear to become more of a factor. Of course, I guess it goes without saying that there are reasons why the more modern cone-shaped and split valve spring retainers (keepers) are a better idea and became the automotive industry
standard"! FWIW,.....harold

User avatar

Craig Leach
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:22 am
First Name: craig
Last Name: leach
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1919 Firetruck/1922 Speedster
Location: Laveen Az
MTFCA Number: 26647

Re: Substituting for a part: Is there a metallurgist in the room?

Post by Craig Leach » Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:33 pm

I seen 7/64 used for a diameter so 3/32 should work right? TIG welding rod.may be the answer. You can get it in steel ER70 & 308 stainless.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic