The frustration of incompetence
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Jelf
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Yes, I wiped the tops of the pistons. I'll get pictures.
Valve stem measurements. Lang's catalogue shows stems as .312", .327", or .342". The unworn part of these measures .325 with one caliper and .3255 with another. I don't know what to make of that.
All I have for checking the guides is a .327 rod. It slides in easily and has a slight wobble, so there is some wear. I believe the reamer for these was .3275, but I don't have any way of finding how much over that the guides are worn.
Valve stem measurements. Lang's catalogue shows stems as .312", .327", or .342". The unworn part of these measures .325 with one caliper and .3255 with another. I don't know what to make of that.
All I have for checking the guides is a .327 rod. It slides in easily and has a slight wobble, so there is some wear. I believe the reamer for these was .3275, but I don't have any way of finding how much over that the guides are worn.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Steve, those valve stem measurements look good. When I was in the business, I would allow .002" of wear on a valve stem. The valve should be free in the guide with a very slight wiggle. An experienced hand can tell by feel. Can you check the wiggle with dial indicator? If excessive, then it would be time to ream to the next size, or replace the valve guides. Are your lifters adjustable? If not, by the time you install valve seats inserts, your valve stems will be most likely too short to obtain proper lash.
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Yes, I'll see if I can measure the wiggle. The lifters are adjustable. Maybe new seats would be a good idea. They cost less than $3each, but I expect the machine work would cost somewhat more.
Here are the piston tops in order—1, 2, 3, 4.
Here are the piston tops in order—1, 2, 3, 4.
The inevitable often happens.
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Head chambers. I wiped them but didn't wire brush or blast. Again in order—1, 2, 3, 4.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Steve,
Your valve seats look way too wide, deep & out-of-round. In short, they're used up. I believe you should have valve seat inserts installed and most likely new or reground valves. Even if the rings weren't bad, my experience has been that the act of just removing the pistons, then putting them back in, reorients the rings in such a way that their wear patterns now do not match those of the cylinders. Along with new rings, a touch-up with a hone is also in order to help the new rings to seat. I don't feel that the cylinder wall pitting is a huge deal. Would be nice if it weren't there, but I wouldn't bore the cylinders to get rid of it.
Your valve seats look way too wide, deep & out-of-round. In short, they're used up. I believe you should have valve seat inserts installed and most likely new or reground valves. Even if the rings weren't bad, my experience has been that the act of just removing the pistons, then putting them back in, reorients the rings in such a way that their wear patterns now do not match those of the cylinders. Along with new rings, a touch-up with a hone is also in order to help the new rings to seat. I don't feel that the cylinder wall pitting is a huge deal. Would be nice if it weren't there, but I wouldn't bore the cylinders to get rid of it.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Rings are not stationary in the slots they rotate as the engine is running, so as as long as they are put in the same slot same side up, should not be reason to replace them.
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... n+cylinder
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... n+cylinder
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas!
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
The vertical scouring bugs me.On a 2 cycle engine if you can even see vertical scouring it will affect a engines running.The ring can't seal that vertical mark. I would be wondering what caused it.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Geez it gets deeper and deeper.
Last edited by Charlie B in N.J. on Thu May 14, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Forget everything you thought you knew.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
I'm happy to allow that it might be a camera illusion, but:
What I see in all the pictures of the valve seats, is that they are not concentric. Every one of the seats seems wider on one side than the other. It's as though they were cut with a tool whose guide shaft was bent. Or it was loose in the valve guide, and the operator leaned it to one side.
This can't be good. The valves are more or less free to rotate, so they can't adapt to a non-concentric seat.
Please tell me it's a camera illusion!
What I see in all the pictures of the valve seats, is that they are not concentric. Every one of the seats seems wider on one side than the other. It's as though they were cut with a tool whose guide shaft was bent. Or it was loose in the valve guide, and the operator leaned it to one side.
This can't be good. The valves are more or less free to rotate, so they can't adapt to a non-concentric seat.
Please tell me it's a camera illusion!
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Wow. 80 thou. over. Could that be part of the problem?
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Hello Steve,
On running a hone through the cylinders, you have nothing to loose. I would try a fixed stone hone first. If you can still feel the rust pits with your finger nail, I would then try a ball hone and see if that helps. I also recognize it is not that much work to re-ring a T every so often if the rust pits cause an ongoing problem. You may get years between problems.
If you decide to go with the existing bores, you should address the piston scoring. I did this myself several years ago on a newer complete rebuild. I chucked the head of the piston up in a lathe and sanded the skirts with WD-40, 220 grit wet and dry, and a sanding block. That nicely cleaned the pistons up. The manufactures specs for piston clearance were to tight. I now set the clearance to a minimum of 3.5 to 4 thou.
When you put it back together. remember to check the ring gaps in each cylinder.
Now your valve problem. I does not appear to be the primary performance issue, but it appears to be an issue. It appears the valves are leaking. Since you posted the photo's of the block it also appears the valve seats are sunk down into the block. I believe this is leading to the installed height of the valve springs being to tall. This I believe is leading to insufficient valve seat pressure and thus valve leakage and will continue to be an ongoing problem.
If you are interested in further input from me on the valves and possible solutions leave a response and I will add further comments this evening.
Respectfully,
Terry
On running a hone through the cylinders, you have nothing to loose. I would try a fixed stone hone first. If you can still feel the rust pits with your finger nail, I would then try a ball hone and see if that helps. I also recognize it is not that much work to re-ring a T every so often if the rust pits cause an ongoing problem. You may get years between problems.
If you decide to go with the existing bores, you should address the piston scoring. I did this myself several years ago on a newer complete rebuild. I chucked the head of the piston up in a lathe and sanded the skirts with WD-40, 220 grit wet and dry, and a sanding block. That nicely cleaned the pistons up. The manufactures specs for piston clearance were to tight. I now set the clearance to a minimum of 3.5 to 4 thou.
When you put it back together. remember to check the ring gaps in each cylinder.
Now your valve problem. I does not appear to be the primary performance issue, but it appears to be an issue. It appears the valves are leaking. Since you posted the photo's of the block it also appears the valve seats are sunk down into the block. I believe this is leading to the installed height of the valve springs being to tall. This I believe is leading to insufficient valve seat pressure and thus valve leakage and will continue to be an ongoing problem.
If you are interested in further input from me on the valves and possible solutions leave a response and I will add further comments this evening.
Respectfully,
Terry
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
I talked to Mike this afternoon and told him I lack three things to deal with this situation. 1 Sufficient mechanical experience; 2 Talent; 3 Confidence that I won't overlook something and screw everything up. He has a full plate right now, but in a couple of weeks I'll call him and make an appointment to haul this engine to Tulsa and get some help from somebody who knows what he's doing. Meanwhile, this car needs other things done to it that I can readily do myself without fear of ruining anything.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Valve sizes I know of are standard, 1/64 over which seems to be where you are and then 1/32 over and that is about as far as you can go. Seems your pistons are maxed out. Measure diameter top to bottom and look for differences. The cross lines in the cylinders are past milling marks, “cherry balling”. Are your rings gapped correctly? I have been using silicon headgaskets with good luck. Have your head magnafluxed and make sure you have no cracks.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
When was your engine last bored and 1/64 over valves installed and new seats cut?
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
I think you are making a wise decision there Steve. Get it into the hands of some one with experience and a good reputation for quality. Build it right and enjoy for a long time!!
Last edited by Scott C. on Fri May 15, 2020 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
I see valves and seats that could use some love. The water in the bore... Darn it.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
A friendly and helpful German farmer near Waukesha Wisconsin allowed his farm to become the test facility.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Takes a big man to admit the water is getting a bit deep. I believe Steve that you've made the right decision. Good Luck.
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
A friendly and helpful German farmer near Waukesha Wisconsin allowed his farm to become the test facility.
That is perfect, John. I wondered if anybody would get it.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Any update!cheers pete
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Topic author - Posts: 6463
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Yesterday I took the short block to Tulsa for an examination by Mike Bender the Model T surgeon.
The cylinders checked out OK for roundness and taper. The pistons are fine. The valves are getting low enough in the block to call for new seats, so we're going with new rings, valves, and seats. But Mike thought the overall condition was pretty good, and my low compression readings may have been from a faulty tester. So if the hard-start/no-start problem wasn't caused by compression I'm back at square one. We'll see how it is with new seats and valves.
The cylinders checked out OK for roundness and taper. The pistons are fine. The valves are getting low enough in the block to call for new seats, so we're going with new rings, valves, and seats. But Mike thought the overall condition was pretty good, and my low compression readings may have been from a faulty tester. So if the hard-start/no-start problem wasn't caused by compression I'm back at square one. We'll see how it is with new seats and valves.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
I thought you used 2 testers? Wow,
This gets more interesting by the day.
This gets more interesting by the day.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Glad she’s in competent hands.
I’m betting the rings and valves are the low compression readings. Both having some problems from overheating.
I’m betting the rings and valves are the low compression readings. Both having some problems from overheating.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Spend the money and have Mike complete the engine, and test run it. You will never regret it after the initial pain of payment subsides. jMHO.
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Re: The frustration of incompetence
Tim
I personally think that's really good advice, particularly as much driving and enjoyment Steve gets from his car...that work will not go to waste with him.
I personally think that's really good advice, particularly as much driving and enjoyment Steve gets from his car...that work will not go to waste with him.
Scott Conger
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Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
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