MTFCA Forum

This is a hypothetical question...please don't make it political.
Not that I agree or disagree, deny or believe...
Climate change is a topic of the current world and the "Green New Deal" is floating around.

Basically one of the goals is to eliminate all use of fossil fuels to generate electricity and replace ALL internal combustion engines with electric...within 10 years !!

Well, what good is a T without the ability to put gas in the tank ?
Should we think about selling now, try to "get around the system", conversions ??

Again this is a hypothetical and just a what if gas is unavailable...

Im going to grow corn and stock up on sugar and yeast! Good for T and driver, just not at same time.

Do you think the oil and gas industry is going to sit back and let that happen?

perry kete wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:19 pm

Do you think the oil and gas industry is going to sit back and let that happen?

No...but what I think is really not the point of this.
I don't think it's possible otherwise, but let's not drift to a bad place.

Dallas Landers wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:17 pm

Im going to grow corn and stock up on sugar and yeast! Good for T and driver, just not at same time.

I don't know (not does anyone), the fine details.
Not sure if ethanol will be on the chopping block or not.

What if we put "OT" before non-model T chatter?

Scott_conger wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:26 pm

What if we put "OT" before non-model T chatter?

Done...sorry I meant to.
But the whole point of this is directly related to a Model T.

The French plan to make Paris gas-free by 2040, a much more realistic goal. I suppose gas will still be available, probably from pharmacies just like when the Model T was born.
Mind you the effect on the petroleum industry will be huge, can you imagine that several of the worlds biggest corporation having no sales. The number of good paying jobs will disappear.
I really doubt the ten years, but I believe pockets could pop up in 20-25 years

Definitely NOT going to happen in the next 10 years. Colorado generates 90% of electricity with natural gas, no nuke plants here. Some wind (and growing), and some solar (and growing) but nowhere near enough to supply the general population.

Then you have to look at commercial airlines. ALL of them use jet fuel, read kerosene/diesel here. Not going to make them cost effective electric powered. Next is the trucking industry. Progress has been made with electric cars i.e. light loads and short distances. NOT going to work with over the road trucking, agricultural, and construction industries, large loads, heavy items, long distances, remote locations.

Will it ever happen? It's possible but not very probable. There will always be a need for fossil fuels and thus there will be gasoline for us. Until when? I can't say but I don't expect to see the end in this lifetime. Oh, I guess I should put in the disclaimer: I work at a refinery. Use all the gas you want, we'll make more.

Cheers,
Terry

Preposterous...gasoline from fossils will be around for another 100 years.

But if greenies get their way, the price per liter or gallon will be super high, so our hobby Model T's will require some creative fuel consumption attachments, seems like good prospect for inventive ones

Ten years? Could an electric commercial passenger plane be ready? Or solar powered plane, but wait, that one couldn't fly at night

A lofty goal but unlikely. Electric powered cars in urban areas are possible but the USA is a big place with distances that no electric vehicle can span without recharging. AIrcraft are also not good candidates. With weight being such a factor you'll never see hundreds of pounds of batteries being shoehorned into a small plane. On and on the list goes. There are things that can be done but you don't change a whole carbon-based economy to something else in so short a time. FWIW - cow burps and farts contribute substantially to greenhouse gases.... are we going to stop eating meat? Do you think people will stand by and allow everything that burns fuel to become useless overnight? Not going to happen.

Change will come but it will be more gradual, starting with the big sources they can more easily control. For example, Detroit Edison is replacing it's coal-fired powerplants with cleaner NG units. New cars are cleaner and more efficient, etc.

For me, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

Dallas, yew kin run that there T-model jes' fine on corn likker. Done it meself. Just make sure yer still is well-hid, don't tell no one but kin what yer doin, and watch out fer th' dang revenooers !! You'll be fine.

Aerioplanes run on 'lectricity ?!? How the hell kin they do that ? Ain't nobody got a 'stension cord thet long !!

Certainly doable with some imagination. In fact I believe lighter older autos like the Model T will be sought after for conversion to electric. There are two fellows on the Nash Metropolitan forum converting to electric right now using fork lift motors and leaving in the original 3 speed transmission. The Metropolitan weighs approx. 1400 pounds and has a 52-55 HP engine depending on the year made. This one is my current project......

Won't happen.

Can't generate enough electricity....the environmentalists don't want to burn fossil fuel to generate it - others don't want nuclear power - still more don't want hydro-power as the dams either flood pristine land or prevent the fish from travelling to spawning grounds. Don't forget those who don't want wind power...the blades kill birds and make "whoosh" noises that some don't like, plus others think the windmills "pollute" the scenery.
Electric powered machines are nice, but there is no unanimously agreeable source of enough electricity to cause the disappearance of the fossil fueled internal combustion engine.

I can tell you what the Chinese have done in the larger cities. They have clunker laws that ban old cars. In 2004 or so they deregistered any car over 10 years of age. I was lucky, I have a 1995 BMW, and it escaped the purge. Now, China has encouraged the use of electric cars by having a long waiting period to get a licence plate for a gasoline powered car, but easy to register electric. An owner is no longer able to sell or transfer ownership of an old car. Once you cancel the plate, thats it. All the cabs and busses in Shenzhen, near Hong Kong, are electric now. The changeover took less than 5 years. The cabs can go a whole shift on one charge, they seem to be working out just fine. The roads are covered with small electric bikes and scooters. These are also ideal in an urban setting, as they do not take up much parking space. Gasoline is expensive here too, though not as expensive as Europe. When the socialists have full control, there are no such things as "grandfathered in". And when they want to do something, it does not take long. I do know of antique cars in China, even Fords. However, they are not allowed to be used on the road. This pretty much limits them to special events and museums.

It gets cold enough up my way in winter that there’s no way an average electric car would have more than a couple miles range, if it moved at all. About the only non-fossil fuel vehicle that would work in the depths of a winter here would be nuclear. Presumably, they’ll keep producing gasoline for a long time to come for the coldest climates.

If somehow fossil fuels are outlawed overnight then my T will run on alcohol or woodgas or something.

Electric powered airplanes are practical now. It's just the extension cords that limit
their travel !

Ethanol, woodgas,hydrogen fuel cells. Nuclear electric cars look really good on paper but are unlikely to become reality.
Then there was that electric ModelT ice cream truck in the T oil pan.

No problem for us, your T was designed from the get go to run on alcohol, that is not made from dinosaur bones, its even 'green' because its 'renewable' so we're actually ahead of our time !
So if and when your fuel injected, turbo powered gas guzzler is banned, you roll the hundred year old T out of the shed and be the most modern guy on the block

I don't care

Most of us will be lucky if we are alive in 10 years!

And even if I am I will need a nurse and crane to get out of bed.

There are hundreds of millions of gasoline powered cars on the road today.

Even if the last gasoline powered car was sold today, the need for gasoline for the existing cars wouldn't go away for at least 25 years...just to keep them in fuel. And...I don't see the last gasoline car being sold for quite some time.

So, whatever that date is (maybe 20 years from now) plus 25 more to accomodate those cars. That's probably the very soonest we'll see the demise of cheap, readily available gasoline.

Those who would legislate petroleum out of existence in favor of alternate energy seem to focus on personal transportation while oblivious of the massive needs for agriculture and transportation. Ethanol is no solution; it requires energy (fuel) to grow it and process it. The net gain is minimal. So far, electric vehicles depend on battery systems which are arguably more of an ecological hazard than fossil fuels.

What about ships? Go back to sailing ships. The only nuke powered mechant ship Savannh was a bust. These folks are just dreamers and dumb ones at that.

If I recall, oil was pumped from the ground for many uses and the last thing left was a highly flamable liquid that could not be used safely for anything and the fines were huge for disposing of it illegaly until the internal combustion engine was invented. All the other uses of oil will still be there and gasoline will still be the end reusult of refining of oil??? Just a thought.

I totally agree that it's an unfeasible goal.
I just fear, that mass ignorance will see it implemented to some degree.
I'm hopefully young enough to be around in 20 years.

I would rename it to the "New green weeny deal"

Rich Bingham wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:18 pm

...Just make sure yer still is well-hid...

Hi Rich -

My understanding is that an individuals can get a permit to produce up to 10,000 octane gallons* of alcohol fuel for personal use every year. *As the octane is increased, the number of gallons you can legally brew is reduced. 2% of gasoline by volume is supposed to be added so the product can't be consumed as "squeeze." I'm looking around for some local Kentuckians who could teach me how to make the mash out of something like sugar beets without the inconvenience of being shot on sight.

The Air Force has been testing jet fuel brewed from biomass in a few of their airplanes since 2010 but I haven't heard how that's going.

There are thousands of people "off the grid". My cabin in the Black Hills is one of them. They still need gasoline to run engines for splitting logs, tractors, augers, etc. There are also millions of off road enthusiasts using gasoline in their ATV's. Maybe they'll be battery powered also, but the building blocks for lithium and similar batteries is finite and thus far expensive to extract and process. Also, it's been -10-20 degrees here for a few days. Battery cars at +20 degrees F, if using a cab heater, only get 40-50% of the mileage per charge as at 75 degrees. I think I'll be able to buy gasoline for my model T for a few more years.

noelchico wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:56 am

Also, it's been -10-20 degrees here for a few days. Battery cars at +20 degrees F, if using a cab heater, only get 40-50% of the mileage per charge as at 75 degrees. I think I'll be able to buy gasoline for my model T for a few more years.

Just speculation here, it seems to me that with current technology, mandatory battery powered vehicles would be a severe handicap in the winter, especially those living in the northern tier. While those living in more temperate regions would be less impacted.

Wood gasifiers.........chars wood until combustible gasses are produced and fed to the engine. Very simple to make at home and many were used in England and Australia during WWII. Only downside: You have what looks like a boiler strapped to the back of your prize brass T.......

George Andreasen wrote: ↑

Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:05 pm

Wood gasifiers.........chars wood until combustible gasses are produced and fed to the engine. Very simple to make at home and many were used in England and Australia during WWII. Only downside: You have what looks like a boiler strapped to the back of your prize brass T.......

If anyone watched past Mountain Men episodes, Eustace converted a Toyota pickup to run on a wood gasifier. It appeared to be a bit of a kludge or like George mentioned, “looks like a boiler strapped to the back.” It was used on several episodes and appeared to work. Some tinkering was required to get it to produce sufficient gas.

Wood, straw, potatoes...whatever.

Every time you transfer energy from one type to another, there is a loss, the percentage of loss varies from conversion to conversion. To make the electricity to run a car, requires electrical generation, which can be made from wind, solar, or hydro power--and then you need power lines to distribute it, and transformers to convert it (and the generators to create it. All of this uses up natural resources and the energy needed to manufacture the physical plant. Currently that distribution system, at least for the suburbs is designed around household use. If you now add recharging units at every house, it will overload the distribution system. Getting back to the energy loss; gas car=construction of car, creation of oil, conversion to motion via combustion of oil (gas). Fuel to motion is roughly three steps. Electric car= construction of car, creation of electricity--by use of some other fuel (wind, solar, hydro, gas, coal, nuclear) storage of electricity (unlike storage of liquid fuel, this is a conversion step), conversion of stored electricity to motion. This is at least four steps, if not five. The electric car is inherently less efficient use of raw resources, so there is a cost to this "zero-emissions" transportation--that involves a LOT of emissions to get to that point!
I'm sorry, but the logic of this conversion to electric vehicles is the same logic that replaced incandescent light bulbs with CFL bulbs--the raw materials needed for one CFL bulb is about 10 times more than one incandescent bulb, not to mention the hazardous materials need. The energy consumed to make one exceeds any electrical savings over the life of the bulb. I call this "Fuzzy Science" and it seems to be permeating our lives.
As to MY model Ts-- sad to say, I probably won't be alive, or alive but unable to drive, when this idiocy comes to bear. Good thing I don't have Ts for an investment, because at that point the only place for them will be in museums--and let us not go into the sad state of the public's dying interest in museums.

According to a recent Yahoo article the AAA has tested a number of production electrics and has finally put into print what the car companies don't want you to know. They tested a Tesla, The chebby (bolt/volt?) electric and 2 others. At 20 deg. the range drops by a whopping 41% ! That's the average on all the vehicles tested. Using the heater and lights will, of course, cut the range further. It would in any case as they use electricity. Battery charging times radically increase at these temps also. Oddly extremely high temps, high 90's /100's has an adverse affect also. The electric car is and will remain a short hop alternative just as it was 100 years ago. When this becomes general knowledge your worry about gas disappearing will in itself disappear.

My response is mostly OT, not related to Model T.

New highly efficient and inexpensive batteries using sulfur not lithium are being researched now. They won't be available commercially for 10 or more years. But I can see a day when the electric car will have as great of a range as a gasoline car and can be charged just as quickly as filling a tank. When that day comes people will buy electric cars because they will be better and cheaper than gasoline cars. Gasoline will still be around and may become less expensive because the demand will fall, unless it is taxed out of existence.

David Dewey has a good point in that it all depends on where the electricity comes from to charge your electric car, although power plants have far greater thermal efficiency than the gasoline car. Transmission lines loose about half the electricity pushed through them. One option is to use solar powered charging stations where the solar panels are on the roof of the charging station. No transmission lines.

David's other point about the energy it takes to save energy is a valid one. Years ago it took more energy to make a solar cell than the cell produced in its lifetime. Not true anymore as the efficiency of making solar cells has greatly improved. I wonder what the net energy saving in LED bulbs is. I suspect that it is a net positive saving.

Steve Jelf has a good point. There is still coal around to run steam locomotives and steam tractors. (This paragraph is Model T related.)

Something has to be done to limit global warming. If all the ice melts, in 200 years or so, Florida will be a new barrier reef and many inland cities will become new beach towns. As the earth warms the heat distribution is changing. The poles are warming faster than the rest of the planet and Antarctic and Greenland glaciers are melting faster than was predicted. The recent polar vortex means that warm air was moving north to displace the cold air moving south. We will all be dead, but our kids kids kids will have to deal with the mess. It may be too late to stop the train wreck. Too much momentum.

Oldav8tor wrote: ↑

Wed Feb 06, 2019 8:16 pm

A lofty goal but unlikely. Electric powered cars in urban areas are possible but the USA is a big place with distances that no Do you think people will stand by and allow everything that burns fuel to become useless overnight? Not going to happen.

Change will come but it will be more gradual, starting with the big sources they can more easily control. For example, Detroit Edison is replacing it's coal-fired powerplants with cleaner NG units. New cars are cleaner and more efficient, etc.

For me, I'm not losing any sleep over it.

What he said. We may have to leave the socialist states of CA and NY, but fossil fuels are here to stay. Men love their cars far too much...

Jeff

Not IF but WHEN.
It will happen.
Someone fairly soon will invent an affordable battery which will give a range of 500 miles.
It may be purely electrical; it may be a fuel cell, but it will come.

And when it does, that will be the end of petrol and diesel cars, and then trucks. The revolution will be just as quick as when the Model T replaced the horse.

Of course, there will still be millions of existing IC engined vehicles around and they will continue in use, but decline in number over maybe 10 years. Nothing the oil companies will be able to do about it. They will still supply as long as there is a demand, but when the IC vehicles are only a small percentage of traffic, gas stations won't be profitable. If 'we' are not banned altogether because of pollution (or because our cars still need a driver!), we will have to pay more and go further to find fuel - maybe even have it delivered by an electric tanker!

That future will make owning a classic car much more difficult. I think we may be at 'peak activity' now. When EVs take over, there will probably be much less demand for 'our' cars; values will fall and it's possible that many will be scrapped. Who wants space filled with cars they can't use?

Just as soon as the ground water gets contaminated by Mercury waste from the new light bulbs or other heavy metal waste from scrapping electric cars there will be the worst outcry from the VERY left-wing wackos that are now insisting on the current conversion to electrics. Let a few million scrap cars full of exotic heavy metals decay into the environment and we really will have a problem that cannot be fixed. The premise of the OP for this subject to not get political cannot be upheld. This is a political issue. The very issues that are dividing the country now are driving this supposed ''for our own good'' change. Freedom of choice means gas for me and being left alone- with electric Uber feel-good rides for the others if they wish. The very very thought of ride-sharing with some liberal world-savers either in a Uber-type situation or in public transportation makes me feel ill. Our current social problems on this electric vehicle issue stem from the absolute fact that the Right believes in personal choice for each while the Left believes in THEIR choice for EVERYONE. It will come to a head in the not too distant future. IMHO Don't argue the point- not posted for debate.

No more gas oh ya, then the idiots will make you tattoo number plates on ya horse. Odd that we still can
use a lawnmower unregistered & with no title , bet thats coming, any day now!! Next door town you have to
get a building permit for a dog house Sick, but then people still vote for the brain these dead's with no formal training for the position !! Whoever paints the biggest campaign sign wins....

this idea is the brain storm of that goofy flat-chested hispanic chick newly elected to the u.s.house by the equally goofy voters of new york state...i don't think the insanity of this idea will go very far. (at least i hope not)

Tinman080 could not have said it better or more precise!!!

Sam, not exactly a new idea, not a number, but so far it's voluntary !

By the way, Tesla has designed electric trucks. They go up grades about twice as fast as Diesel trucks and re-charge going down. Not on the road yet but coming. Trucks can carry lots of batteries and the proportional weight of the batteries is less than that of cars. The economics that Tesla pushed showed electric trucks to the be better than Diesel trucks but it depended on follow-the-leader driverless trucks following a truck with a driver at the wheel.

The world is changing. Each generation accepts the world as it is. Us old farts don't like to see things change. I wonder what Daniel Boone would think if he stepped into North Carolina today. He was going west to escape all the development in the east.