Model T 1913 Help with engine number

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mustang1
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Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:16 pm

Hi Folks,
This is my first forum post. My name is Brian and I just imported a beautiful 1913 model T into the UK.

The number on the engine plate is 261644 which fits in with the age for May 1913, but unfortunately when I tried to register the car in the UK, our highways department called DVLA, sent out an inspector to see if the car was real. Therein starts the problem. The engine plate is stamped 261644 but about I/2 an inch to the right there is a no 9 stamped. The stamp is slightly out of line with the main stamp but the inspector insisted it is part of the number and recorded it as 2616449. The California Title document only has the first 261644 so now the DVLA will not make a UK title unless I can prove the car is 1913 and explain the extra number.


Can anyone help?

Cheers....Brian


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Humblej » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:25 pm

Can you attach a picture for us please.


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:32 pm

Brian, welcome to the affliction, and to the forum ! I have a 1913 runabout, would love to see some photos of your new "import".

Perhaps a photo of the engine number and the offending "9" could help forum members offer some explanations, but would the rigid inspector you encountered accept opinions from across the pond ? Is there any chance of appealing this fellow's rather unreasonable insistence ? Would the inspector bow to "expert" assessments that the car is indeed a 1913 model ? Documentation that the engine serial number (without the 9) is indeed May, 1913, is easy enough to come by, one would think the California title document would suffice. Dontcha just love bureaucrats ?? :?
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Ruxstel24 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:37 pm

Usually the date code is to the right of the SN.
It is cast and not stamped.
Is the 9 actually stamped inwardly or sticking out ?

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:58 pm

I gather that "engine plate" means the flat area machined on the side of the engine above the water inlet. That's where the engine serial number is located after the very early cars.

There are glaring differences between a car made in May of 1913 and one made in April of 1918, which would be the date indicated by the extra digit. Your inspector is probably unschooled on century-old cars, and will need to be shown that this car is really a 1913 and can't possibly be a 1918. Bruce McCalley's Model T Encyclopedia details the changing features by year and includes pictures. I would start with the serial number section and show that the six digit number indicates May 2, 1913, and that adding the extra digit would make it April 4, 1918. Then show the pictures and descriptions of the same features for the two different cars. You shouldn't have to go far beyond the radiator.
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:09 pm

ZnRqDmBnh3ThrUCh4z-0.jpg
ZnRqDmBnh3ThrUCh4z-0.jpg (8.51 KiB) Viewed 2877 times


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:10 pm

EhHiqHr23Ng7Q8XNxptr.jpg
EhHiqHr23Ng7Q8XNxptr.jpg (6.42 KiB) Viewed 2877 times


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:11 pm

my house is a bit older 1632


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:16 pm

boovHZxfS7q3lH1rZOTP.jpg
boovHZxfS7q3lH1rZOTP.jpg (122.57 KiB) Viewed 2876 times
boovHZxfS7q3lH1rZOTP.jpg
boovHZxfS7q3lH1rZOTP.jpg (122.57 KiB) Viewed 2876 times


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by mustang1 » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:17 pm

alC85bJESLDHfyhfCglX.jpg
alC85bJESLDHfyhfCglX.jpg (7.13 KiB) Viewed 2876 times


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Rich Bingham » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:41 pm

Hmm. Appears to be a "bitsa" T, mostly '20s from the look of the sheet metal. Now it becomes problematic whether the later radiator and sheet metal have been hung on an earlier chassis. I can't see the motor number well enough to comment. Thanks for the photos. Looks like it will be a fun car !
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by david_dewey » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:10 pm

That doesn't appear to be a factory stamping, at least from the low resolution picture you sent. I can see part of the casting date at the right side of the picture, a 4, meaning April.
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Feb 07, 2019 4:26 pm

It's impossible to read the number or discern much of anything from the miniature images, but I suspect this car may be a parts salad. If you post some full sized pictures maybe we can tell you about it.
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Humblej » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:38 pm

Brian, I have sent you a PM.


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by wayne sheldon » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:49 pm

Sorry to say, there is not much 1913 there. Like others, I cannot see enough detail in the low resolution image of the serial number. However, I do know the series of changes in the shape of the serial number embossment to know the block is not any earlier than 1917. More likely, even much later. Does the front of the motor, on the other side, have mountings for a generator? Those mounting flat areas and bolt holes were added in 1919, whereas all the earlier blocks had a cast-en-block cover around the side and back of the timing gear. Again, photos of the other side would help there.
What I can see in the serial number photo suggests that the serial number on the block may well be one stamped on after the block left the factory. The block was probably a replacement for a damaged block many years ago. Does it have a single long cover over the sides of the valves? Or two short covers?
More and higher resolution pictures of the engine and car can help us to identify what you have.

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by twrenn » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:57 pm

All I know is, for some reason when I click on the pictures..nothing happens. Used to have a nice large one pop up on the screen, now I get nothing! Any one else having this issue? And yes, if THAT car in the little pics above as well as the larger one of that drop dead gorgeous house, it is all "sorts of" stuff. If there's a chance you could get a different inspector, I'd figure out a way to get rid of the "9" and then you've got your bonafide May 1913 number to show and problem should be solved. Who needs that extra digit at this stage of the game any way??

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Mark Gregush » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:17 pm

Looks like it has a black radiator which would be 1918 up.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :roll:

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by DanTreace » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:16 pm

Brian

Nice T! Like the speedster look. As Wayne noted the serial # boss on the block grew in size over the years, an early block would have a much smaller length boss, below is a 1914 serial number on a 1914 genuine block.
IMG_4659 (700x525) - Copy.jpg
And a later block compared to your photo, enlarged slightly.
1917 Model T Motor 002 (800x600).jpg
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Allan » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:30 am

My wife has followed my T model affliction from before we were married in 1969. When I showed her the photo of the car in front of the house, her comment was, "That's no more 1913 than I am!"

The inclusion of the 9 at the end of the engine number would be consistent with the April 1918 date given by Steve, The black radiator and hood, the front fenders and the engine no. with the 9 included all indicate this. It would be interesting to know when/how the California title was generated, to throw some light on the history of the car. The date on the title is a misrepresentation of the facts, either through ignorance or deliberate action. In this case, the British bureaucrat appears to have got it right, and the Californian counterpart had it way wrong.

Either way Brian, it looks to be a nice car and you should have a lot of fun with it. I just hope you didn't pay a premium price expecting a brass radiator veteran.

Allan from down under.


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:58 am

Unfortunately, the history of so many of the common cars from many years ago has been muddied or even totally lost to time. It may be different in some other countries, however, in the USA, many states did not even register cars until after the model T era. There are still some states that do not have licensing or registration of cars more than X number years old. Registration and licensing laws vary greatly from state to state. In addition to that, MOST states purge their old records after a few years, so even if they HAD a record of it? It may have been destroyed years ago.
This often creates problems in the hobby over here. A few states are easy to get along with. Some are nearly impossible for anyone but a specialist. Most are somewhere in between.
This is one area where California is not as bad as many other states. The flip side of that is, that there are a lot of cars improperly registered here (as well as in many other states). Listed as incorrect years is common, sometimes even incorrect serial numbers. A lot of cars that are NOT Ford model Ts are in fact licensed as Ford model Ts.

Model T Fords are a lot of fun! They are a very important piece of all our history. I hope you can find this car to be a good thing for you!


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by d stroud » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:13 am

Yep, when I click on the small images nothing happens here either. I'll bet the forum gurus will get that fixed too, they seem to have a handle on things. ;) Dave
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by DanTreace » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:14 pm

Dave

The little photo is due to the small size of the original upload, won't complain to webmaster :P

Here is my enlargement using Microsoft Paint.
alC85bJESLDHfyhfCglX.jpg
alC85bJESLDHfyhfCglX.jpg (38.88 KiB) Viewed 2584 times
Really like this one, racy looking ;)
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:35 pm

...for some reason when I click on the pictures..nothing happens.
It's determined by the size of the picture you post. A big file works like this:
IMG_5924_2.JPG
Miniatures get this treatment:
IMG_5924_2 copy 2.JPG
IMG_5924_2 copy 2.JPG (20.99 KiB) Viewed 2575 times
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by wayne sheldon » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:19 pm

I don't know how it is on other search/operating systems, I have Google Chrome on a PC. My cursor changes form depending upon the area of the screen. For some things, it is a bold arrow. Other things it becomes a sort of "][" shaped thing. Over some kinds of links, I get a hand pointing a finger.
So, if I run the cursor over the "thumbnails" in the thread, if it changes to a hand pointing a finger? Then it is a link to a larger picture (how much larger is dependent upon how large the uploaded picture was). If there is no larger picture to link to (because the uploaded picture was that small to begin with), then the cursor remains the bold arrow.

Sorry for the thread drift. But hope this helps some.

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Oldav8tor » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:21 pm

Brian, if no one else has said it, welcome to the Model T Community! You'll find out the fella's on here have a wealth of information and experience working with Model T's and are not reluctant to share it. I have benefited from the combined wisdom of the group more times than I can count. If I may suggest, take some decent sized photos from all angles and post them.... you'll get a lot of info about your car. In particular, try to get good photos of the serial number and engine block casting date. Typically, the only number on a Model T is the engine number, but it is possible to have a newer engine mounted in an older frame and so on... Best of luck!
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Original Smith » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:46 pm

1913 did not have a boss that long for the engine number, therefore your engine is not a 1913. As mentioned above, what is the casting date, or has it been removed?

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by MikeSommers » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:55 pm

I am sure that your block was cast at 9:00 in the morning... hence the'9'. Most bureaucrats respond favorably to solid logic, so this is reasonable.

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by twrenn » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:51 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 4:35 pm
...for some reason when I click on the pictures..nothing happens.
It's determined by the size of the picture you post. A big file works like this:

IMG_5924_2.JPG

Miniatures get this treatment:

IMG_5924_2 copy 2.JPG
Thanks Steve! Learn something new every day!!


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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Johnnybuick » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:21 am

Definitely an administration error on the title.. Sure,, who wouldnt want their 1918 to miraculously suddenly become a 1913 & boast "my automobile now is older than dirt" ..honestly I would find a typewriter of similar script to the title you have ..and change that dirty little 3 into an 8 !! Then Explain to the inspector ie: (Ol Blakey from on the buses) that the title previously shown to him belongs to the other 1913 you have in the garage which is yet to be restored and eventually processed. & You basically handed him the wrong title..
& thus....
Problem solved & You'l be as happy as Larry goin up the road in your T.. head'n down to the shops for a pommie pork pie mate .. sayi'n " cor blimey charlie that was a real doddle" !!

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by John Warren » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:42 am

early engine.jpg
This is what your engine should look like
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Allan » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:54 pm

John, if you are thinking Brian has an 18 model as suggested, then your picture is about right, although the NH carb is out of place. If you are suggesting a 1913 should look like your photo, then there is way more out of place. Can you fill us in? Anyone new to T's will be confused.

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Original Smith » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:09 am

I hope you weren't taken advantage of when you bought that car. There is nothing 1913 on it or anything else. I hope you enjoy it though.

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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:59 am

Lacking any good pictures of the car we don't know in detail what's on it and in it, but the little photos posted so far suggest a parts salad mostly from the late teens and twenties. I hope I'm wrong.
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by John Warren » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:41 pm

Allan you are right, this photo of the right hand side of an early engine would be very similar to what he should have with that serial number. It is what I could find that had two valve covers and no generator mount. Yes carb, manifold radiator etc is wrong. It sure sounds like it is NOT a 13. Thanks.
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Re: Model T 1913 Help with engine number

Post by wayne sheldon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 1:05 am

I do hope we haven't scared the original poster away?

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