1917 Top question

[Oldav8tor]

Chatting with a fellow today about my 1917 Touring, a few questions came up regarding the top installation I'm planning. Hopefully those in the know can help me out.

1.) Was "Hidem" used over any of the seams on a '17 top or was it all flat welt with one rolled edge?

2.) Did the '17 have a metal strip that covered the top edge of the rear seat where the rear top flap overlaps the seat upholstery? If so, any suggestions as to where I can get one?

[KeithG]

Tim, Are you aware that an original '17 Touring with only 26 miles on the odometer was found about 30 years ago? It was found in WI and written up in The Vintage Ford magazine and also in Bruce MaCauly's book "The Model T Ford, The Car That Changed The World"? The articles on this all original car had lots of pictures of it and will probably answer both of the questions you've asked and many others also. Bruce's book was originally a hard cover, but a paperback version came out later. These are available pretty easily. You could even run a Want to buy ad on our Forum Parts section to find one.

Best wishes,

Keith

[KWTownsend]

Tim-
Flat welt with one rolled edge. Around the from bow and the back bow.
Hid'em came years later.

Here it is around a 1915 door.

Curtain trim. Yes. Not reproduced.

I created one out of aluminum trim for my 1919 until I found the real deal.

: ^ )

Keith

[Wayne Sheldon]

For whatever it is worth. If I ever get that far on my '15 runabout? I plan to slice the side off about four to five feet of 3/4 inch electrical conduit to make that metal cap for the bottom of the top. The curve is nearly perfect, the metal is ridged enough to hold shape, yet form-able enough to shape around the back of the seat (characteristics necessary for electrical conduit use). I will have to shape the ends to taper nicely, and countersink drilled holes for the screws to attach with. All easy steps.
I used the same method to replace some missing trim around the rear deck. Looks very good.

[Oldav8tor]

All great info as usual. Thanks!

[Original Smith]

I'm sure the touring mentioned above is the Rip Van Winkle.

[KeithG]

Hi Larry, Yes, it is the Rip Van Winkle car. I forgot to mention that in my post above. I'm not at home so I can't look up which issue of The Vintage Ford that article was in, but I think it was still while Bruce was the Vintage Ford editor. That would make it before the early '90's I think.

Cheers,

Keith

[Erik Johnson]

1917 "Rip Van Winkle" Ford touring. June 1917 serial number.

Click on each photo to enlarge.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Hi Tim!

That metal trim strip can be a bear to find! If I'm not mistaken, (and sometimes I am!), the Touring body version and the Roadster body version may be different. Doesn't seem as if they should be, but to be certain, if you find one, have dimensions ready to confirm it will fit.

Your '21 Roadster should have one. Could probably double check based on examining it.

All that said, I'd look for one for a while, then probably end up making one...

[Original Smith]

I have seen, and driven that car. Two things I failed to observe. First, it has Hastings rear windows in it. Certainly the original owner didn't install them! Another observation, I'd sure like to know the diameter of the upholstery nail on the binding for the rear bow. I think it should be 9/16". Can anyone clarify that?

[Erik Johnson]

The Hastings window frames were added within the past 40 years. I surmise that the rear windows were damaged or torn sometime during that period so the fix was to add those accessory frames.

Someone also added modern muffler wrap with stainless steel bands and an oil can holder to the steering column.

The car also has reproduction front top straps.

The correct, oversize upholstery nails for the top are not readily available. Eight are required on a touring. The work-around is to use black snap buttons (snap fastener). You screw the male portion of the snap into the top material and bow and then snap the female portion over it.

[Oldav8tor]

Your photos and comments have been very helpful. If I can't find an original steel strip I may try a strip of half oval SS marine rub strip.

1.) Looking inside the oval top sockets I see they have wood in them. I was able to remove the wood from the longest sockets but one was pretty rotten. (Photo 1) How important is it to have wood inserts in the sockets? Anybody use something else? What about protecting the inside of the sockets from corrosion?

2.) In photo 2 you'll see some holes in the top of the sockets. Would these have been used to put in tacks or something to attach the top?

Photo 1

Photo 2

[R.V.Anderson]

Originally the wood was put in there to add strength and support to the section of top sockets' tubing between the castings at the bottom and the end of the wood bows at the top end. The wood usually rotted, and the wet wood swelled, causing rust and opening the folded seams of the steel tubing. I know that John Boorinakis replaces the wood with pourable epoxy in his new sockets. This will not only prevent rust but provides a decent anchorage for the little machine screw that holds the key straps' upper end.

[Erik Johnson]

From the factory, there a single nail hole on the outboard side of each socket. These are from the large head, upholstery nails that were used to fasten the top material to the socket. As previously posted, eight large head upholstery nails were used on a touring - one upholstery nail per socket.

See photo below with arrows pointing out the upholstery nail on each socket.

Your top sockets have holes that were added by someone at a later date.

Also, I recently posted 1917 roadster top sockets in another thread. Click on the link below. You can see the single nail hole on the outboard side of each socket from the upholstery nail. I also show the single nail in each socket that used to keep the wood bow in place (that was the original reason for posting the photos).

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11380

[Oldav8tor]

OK - since I have your attention, a few more questions My car did not have a top on it when I bought it, only the bows, which needed replacement. The bows were wrapped in cloth which was sewn together and tacked in a few places. Is that how the cloth bow covers are supposed to be installed?

When I bought the car there was a sealed carton under the back seat with a 1989 postmark which when opened, contained the materials for a top. I thought it would be junk after all these years but it was in surprisingly good shape. The only problem, the instructions leave a lot to be desired and there are parts that I can't fathom the function of (thus my questions.)

Since we're on lockdown here in Michigan I can't go look at an installed top to get any hints....hopefully before too long.

If anyone is aware of a good tutorial on top assembly and installation I'd love to hear about it.

BTW - does anyone know who J. C. Whitney bought their Model T top kits from 30 years ago? Seems to be quality construction but there is no name on it or the printed documentation.

[Erik Johnson]

From the factory, on a touring the first bow is covered with one piece of thin leatherette. It is attached with tacks. The leatherette is cut on the bias so it does not pucker when rounding the corners of the bow. If I recall correctly, Classtique does not sell long enough pieces of the leatherette cut on the bias so it has to be done in three pieces - one long piece for the middle and two shorter pieces for the corners. (My father and I were at Classtique last fall and picked up material because my dad wants to re-do the top on his 1917 touring.)

The second, third and fourth bows are covered with cotton "drill." Drill is fabric that is woven on the bias. In other words, it has a diagonal weave. If true drill is not available, then regular weave fabric is cut at a 45 degree angle. The reason for using fabric with a diagonal weave is the same reason as mentioned above: to prevent puckering where it rounds the corners.

The cotton drill is sewn on the second and third bows. You don't tack the drill on the second and third bows because the heads of the tacks will eventually wear through the top material. (The top material is only attached to the second and third top sockets with a single upholstery nail per socket as I mentioned in the posts above.)

The cotton drill is tacked on the fourth bow and fourth bow shim.

Look at prior forum posts to learn more:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3A ... e&ie=UTF-8

Top bow shim - fourth bow of tourings:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/70 ... 1489351395

[david_dewey]

The metal piece along the back is not round, I don't think you can make it from a piece of conduit. It is basically an "L" shape, but the tall (vertical) part is curved slightly, not much though.

[Erik Johnson]

Here's a photo of the 1917 Rip Van Winkle touring showing what David Dewey described. Click on the photo to enlarge.

Note that the car was wearing its side curtains when this photo was taken.

As he said, it is L or J shaped on the bottom.

My father and I also have the original trim piece on our 17's.

The trim was used from the 1915 model year until, I believe, 1922. Hidem welt was used with the one man tops (1923 and forward).

[Model t tommy]

I have a number of them out of an old Ford garage in condee south Dakota

[Oldav8tor]

Tom - I sent you an message

[Oldav8tor]

Tom solved one problem - now to another. The top kit I found boxed up in my car had some items I haven't been able to figure out. In the box were eight pieces of vinyl (see photo) that measure about 24 inches on the diagonal. The instructions that came with the kit (such as they were) make no mention of them and I can't see where anything similar is used in other kits. My only guess is because there are eight, maybe they're meant to wrap the corners of the bows or something.

If anybody has seen these or has an idea of their function I'd love to hear it

[Erik Johnson]

I thought I had answered that in private message.

As posted before, the first bow is covered with a single piece of leatherette. The leatherette is cut on the bias (cut diagonally to the weave) so it doesn't pucker at the corners.

Because you have eight pieces that are cut on the bias , I can only surmise that their purpose is to wrap the two corners of each of the four bows. HOWEVER, that is not correct because the cars did not come from the factory that way.

Contact Mike at Classtique to obtain leatherette for the first bow and cotton drill for the second, third and fourth bow.

[Oldav8tor]

Erik,
Yes, you did send me a private message that contained a lot of useful info (thanks!) but you also said you hadn't seen such pieces before. I just thought I'd see if anyone else on the forum had come across them.

[DHort]

Tim

Now the question comes up, did you also receive the bow drill for the 3 rear bows and the leatherette for the front bow?

If so, then we still have no clear answer as to why these pieces are in your kit.

[Oldav8tor]

Dave,
Yes - I did receive the drill for the three rear bows and the leatherette for the front. The front is one long piece and another piece that has a snap and strap over a hole I think is designed to accommodate a windshield wiper when one is installed. I'll try to remember to takes some pics tomorrow.

[Erik Johnson]

If you have another long piece of top material, that may be for a front rain flap/windbreaker.

However, be aware that 1917 Fords did not have a rain flap/windbreaker. The windbreaker was introduced around 1920, according to Bruce McCalley. Most folks install the windbreaker.

Regarding the windshield wiper notch: a manual wiper was introduced in the 1925 model year. An automatic wiper was available for 1926-27. 1925 and 1926-27 windbreakers had a notch with the strap and snap to accommodate the wiper arm. However, the design of the 1925 windbreaker is distinctly different from the 1926-27 windbreaker.

I wonder if you have the correct kit for your car?

[Oldav8tor]

Erik - My kit pieces have "1917 Touring" scrawled on them in fabric chalk and that's what the box said. As to the car, I'm told the windshield frame is typical of a early 1917 model year (was built 9/23/16) photo 1. It has a small hole in the top tube in front of the driver which I assumed was for a manual wiper. Photo 2 is a lousy picture taken in the rain during last year's Covered Bridge Tour but you can just see the little hole in the picture. Photo 3 shows the leatherette strip with the notch and snap. It measures a little under five feet long. I don't have access to some of the references guys often refer to so I ask questions and make educated guesses... I appreciate it when fellows chime in with more info.

Photo 1

Tim_17.jpg (82.03 KiB) Viewed 6643 times

Photo 2 - a top might have helped a little

Photo 3

[Erik Johnson]

That hole in your windshield frame is not factory so it could have been drilled any time in the last 113 years.

Also, the rain flap you show appears to be what is known as cobra grain. Cobra grain was not used on Model T roadster or touring tops from the factory although through the years vendors did offer cobra grain top kits for restorers. Don't know if any of the vendors currently offer cobra grain kits but you could probably get one special order from Classtique.

Turf grain from Haartz Corporation which is available through Classtique is considered a close match to factory. Colonial grain, available from Classtique as well as vendors such as Lang's, was considered a good match until Turf became available.

[Oldav8tor]

Erik,
The grain on the flap is the same as is on the top material that I have. I don't know who made the kit but I plan to install it. It represents almost $500 I won't have to spend. It's not new but appears to be in great condition.