Engine miss

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Art Ebeling
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Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:37 pm

I have had my 11 engine started but it misses on numbers three and four. It came to me newly rebuilt. I had the coils rebuilt and the carb rebuilt. Shorting those cylinders out makes no noticeable in the rpm’s. I have switched coils around no difference. I thought it was an intake leak because spraying brake clean at the intake port slowed or stalled the engine. I have replaced the intake glands and copper rings twice. The glands are not too wide, the manifold is not being held out by the glands,and the manifolds are straight. After replacing the manifold gaskets the last time, same problem I now think I was getting a false reading by spraying thru the plastic nozzle, as it took a steady spray to affect the rpms. Today I took the head off and the numbers one and two pistons are black the problem numbers three and four are shiny and clean. At a loss here, Art
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Re: Engine miss

Post by John kuehn » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:51 pm

How about the coil box, wiring in and around the box and timer.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:57 pm

I have checked the wiring,switched the coils around and even wired the coil box backwards (from left to right) keeping the firing order correct, there is good spark at the plugs, no change, always number three and four. the timer is an original brass two piece. All looks good.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:57 pm

Art, did you not have this same line of questions on another thread?

I had suggested a different intake manifold in lieu of the original aluminum dog-leg intake manifold? Did you try that?

And, what were the compression readings prior to taking off the head?

A pair of cylinders side by side, that clean, leads me to a hellacious vacuum leak or a manifold obstructed by a rag.
Last edited by Scott_Conger on Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Engine miss

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:59 pm

This sounds ridiculous, but if the engine's been sitting awhile you may have a mouse nest in the rear side of the intake manifold. You wouldn't be the first that that's happened to.

I have no experience with the original two piece timer, but I have heard of problems with them. I have also heard that the problems are easily fixed. Someone with experience will have to kick in his two cents.


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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:54 pm

Scott and RV, I did have another thread titled intake leak, sorry for the double post. I had the manifolds off again and took them to a machine shop to check them for level, level and no obstructions. I did not check the compression before removing the head and I do not have a different intake to try. I am going to reinstall the head with a new gasket and try to find a different intake manifold. RV, Could it be the wiring in the coilbox? Art

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Re: Engine miss

Post by RichardG » Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:56 pm

art, please make certain the head bolts holes are clear, the one i can see in the middle of the block near the manifold has water in it, [cant compress water] it can crack the block. its going to be hard to find the problem with it apart, when engine was trying to start did it sound like all cylinders had good compression ?not limping by ,each rotation needs to sound the same,a good test for manifold leak, when engine is running ,spray carb cleaner where te manifold mates to the block,in your case the rear,cant do this with head off, while head is off could the intake valves in those two cyliners be slightly stuck? are they closing tight,you mention its been setting a while, by the looks of where the head gasket was ,it was making a good seal, you might have to put it back together to find the problem, it don't look as its the ign system,the best way to test that is lay a plug with wire hooked to it on the block turn engin over with ign on, you should get a spark. this some time will make you scratch your head, but its going to be simple when you do find the problem .good luck


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:01 pm

Art, if you're asking about the wiring in the coil box, but have spark at the plugs, I think the question should be, "is the wiring right at the timer?"

Firing order is 1,2,4,3 and if you have 4-3 reversed to 1,2,3,4 that would also give the appearance of slight soot in valve area along with a clean piston. That was something that I missed on my earlier post but your statement jogged me...
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Bill Robinson » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:10 pm

Art- Scott may be on it!


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:50 pm

The plugs fire in the proper order with them out and laying on the head when I would hand crank it with the key on. After installing the manifolds I gave it four quarter turns while choking it and got a free start when I turned the key on. I thought It was going to be alright but it still had the miss on three and four. It might have even gotten worse after warming up. Art
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Norman Kling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:37 pm

If you are getting a good spark in the right order, your ignition system is working. Have you tried exchanging the spark plugs 1&2 with 3&4? Sometimes a plug will spark with no compression but will not spark under compression. If that doesn't fix the problem, I would suggest a compression check. It is unusual for two adjacent cylinders to have a valve problem it is not impossible and if one of those two has an open intake valve, it could also affect the intake of the other cylinder. So first thing to do would be a compression check If it is low on one or both those cylinders, you need to check the valves for either a valve stuck open or an incorrect clearance at the lifters. Also if one or more head bolts is bottoming out before it compresses the gasket, you will have a compression leak. The threads in the block should be cleaned out with a bottoming tap and all loose material blown out of the holes. When you install the head, put it in place without the gasket and tighten down the bolts. They should touch the top of the head before bottoming out in the block. If they don't run all the way down, grind off some from the end of the bolts. Then remove the bolts and the head and install the gasket. Be sure to torque down the head and after the engine is warmed up, torque it again. Do this every time you warm up the engine until it holds torque to 50 ft lbs. I can't think of anything else which not mentioned above which could cause the problem
Norm


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Apr 12, 2020 5:54 pm

Years ago, I had an agravating miss on my '13 with new plug wires and found several with cold and separated joints. I have also found new wires with the wire simply bent around back and the crimped on lug was the sole connection. Both sets had to have the solder reflowed on the first one, and completely disassembled and soldered and crimped back together on the second one. I also managed to burn my "hot" wire on the exhaust manifold exactly like I'll bet you've just done based on the one picture recently posted. ;)

good luck...you'll get there and will be the wiser when you do.
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Re: Engine miss

Post by 2nighthawks » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:23 pm

Two thoughts by looking at top photo. Spark plug wires appear to be very close to throttle linkage control rod. Perhaps shorting out? Also, might wait 'till dark and from what you say, engine does run on two cylinders. With engine running in pitch dark tonight, look for errant sparks.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by SteveTN » Sun Apr 12, 2020 6:30 pm

Timer wires running to/from the coil box look close to number one spark. But it may be the picture. I have clips keeping mine well away from except where they need to go.


We need a pool where whoever finds the problem get a set of freeze plugs or something.
Last edited by SteveTN on Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 7:24 pm

I am ordering a new head gasket. When the head is back on I will do a compression test and post he results. and when it's running correctly I will post the solution so we can have a winner. Could the cylinders being washed out clean make the rings not want to seat creating low compression. This is a new not broken in rebuild. Grasping at straws, Art


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Re: Engine miss

Post by John kuehn » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:02 pm

No experience with the early timers for me but what about using the newer more common style if you have one handy to see if it helps. Maybe a different fit up than the later common type? Bet its something simple. You’ll eventually get it right. Hang in there.


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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:19 pm

John, I have been told you can't use a different timer on the 1911 unless you change the timing gear cover. Otherwise I would try a new day timer. Art


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Joe Reid » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:39 pm

Are your valves set, in the picture they all look closed. Maybe 3 and 4 weren’t done??


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Re: Engine miss

Post by R.V.Anderson » Sun Apr 12, 2020 8:44 pm

A slight carbon track in a wood (or any) coil box will often be just enough to stop the plug sparking under compression but not in the open air. BTDT!


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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:55 am

Can a different timer be used withe this timing gear cover? Art
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Russ T Fender » Mon Apr 13, 2020 9:50 am

Art, after years of struggling with a two piece timer I gave up, changed the timing cover and switched to a brush style timer. No more problems. Unfortunately, the early timing cover for the two piece timer can't be used and if you want to keep the spring loaded fan set up you will need very early timing cover.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:26 am

Russ, I am not using the spring loaded fan set up. I believe that was a little earlier than my car. Mine has an adjusting bolt and nut. What timing gear cover should I use to go with a brush style timer? Art

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Re: Engine miss

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:43 am

While it would not be correct and the points police might get after you :D , any cover made after the one with oil filler built into the timer up to 1919ish for non generator engine should work.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Engine miss

Post by John kuehn » Mon Apr 13, 2020 11:32 am

Might be a reason Ford changed to the later style timer that was pretty reliable for many years. Won’t be much of a job to get the later Generator cover and timer to see if it works. Easier to do than tearing the engine down. But that’s me. Probably was done way back when since Ford made parts that mostly would interchange. If it doesn’t work then you would know for sure for the next step.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:05 pm

I do not believe for a second that you have a timer problem if you are getting sparks at each cylinder. Do not be kidded into replacing the cover just to put on a cheap timer which will do nothing better than what you have.

Dear God, the things I've heard taken apart because something doesn't run well. Just because it has a nut on it doesn't mean that trouble lies just below it.

Two piece timers are extremely well built and with care outlast their owners.

Look somewhere else.
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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:58 pm

Scott, I have a new head gasket and a different intake coming. I will start there and post the results. Thanks, Art


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Re: Engine miss

Post by John kuehn » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:11 pm

Ford must have been kidded into a better design for the later timer. Must have worked pretty good I guess.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:44 pm

Regarding newer timers being better...If better means having to wrestle to remove it or have to remove it completely to even have access to clean it, is still just as prone to suffer oil leaks and was essentially no change to function, then the newer design is much better than the old one.

The old one could be serviced in place... takes two thumb nuts to pull the cover plate and do complet service, lube and put the plate on. It's function and guts is all but identical to the newer design. The newer roller is even a perfect retrofit to the old one (with the addition of a thin washer).

The only inprovement was on Ford's bottom line, the new stamped out design was cheaper to make, more miserable to service, but identical in function. I see how Ford saw it as an improvement, but not how any owner would consider it an improvement.

It took 20+ years in the hobby to get the opportunity to work on a really early car and run across an early timer. Having seen one and working with it, I am very impressed with it's superior design and ease of use. It had to be much more expensive to manufacture, but all things being equal, it is a superior design, in my opinion.
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Re: Engine miss

Post by bnchief » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:05 pm

Scott i do not see why that timer is not doing the job, one would think the roller is bouncing but why not 1 and 2 does not make sense could be a combination of issues I already suggested timer wiring on another forum as have you. Art will persevere and get this.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:45 pm

Steven

you misunderstand me. I'm betting the timer is doing just fine. I am trying to keep him from removing the FRONT OF THE ENGINE to swap it for a newer style.

See my Monday 12:05 post and the post before that...
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:05 am

While the head is still off, have a look at the valve seats in #3 & #4 and see if you can determine whether or not the valves are contacting the seats for the full 360 degrees. Though the engine has not run for long, you should still see indications of contact on the seats and on the valves. Also, check the valve lash to be certain you have clearance in the intake & exhaust valves when the valves are down/closed.

All of these potential problems will ultimately be revealed during a compression test, but if you find them now, you'll have saved a new head gasket from being used up needlessly.

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Re: Engine miss

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Apr 14, 2020 9:25 am

Hi Agree with Scott, don't removing the front of the engine yet. The issue is more about the valve set #4 & # 3 I thought. Please double check in the side of the intake too.

Art if it is possible making a little video when you hand crank the engine, it will may gave some further indications...

All the best,
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:09 pm

R.V.Anderson wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:59 pm
This sounds ridiculous, but if the engine's been sitting awhile you may have a mouse nest in the rear side of the intake manifold. You wouldn't be the first that that's happened to.

I have no experience with the original two piece timer, but I have heard of problems with them. I have also heard that the problems are easily fixed. Someone with experience will have to kick in his two cents.
And the winner is! RV, I think you got it! I can not get my pinky down the rear leg of the manifold. Here is a picture of a solid restriction. Next is to break it out to determine what it is.
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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:34 pm

Mud dobber nest, solid restriction, have to break it out. Thanks to all who gave advice. Art
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Re: Engine miss

Post by bnchief » Fri Apr 17, 2020 12:49 pm

Art glad you found it you definitely want that thing really clean, that is a lot of crud.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Fri Apr 17, 2020 1:35 pm

I guess it wasn't just the coils buzzing! Wow!


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Re: Engine miss

Post by KimDobbins » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:33 pm

Congratulations Art are RV. I was betting on the valves not closing. That car came from just south of San Francisco. It was stored in a shed and there were parts from that car in other sheds and barns on the property. I know the engine was never run and was probably rebuilt 25-30 years ago. God only knows how where that manifold came from, the previous owner was a very long time collector of T stuff. Glad you got it sorted out.


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Art Ebeling
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Re: Engine miss

Post by Art Ebeling » Sun Apr 19, 2020 7:47 pm

Three pulls with choke and one with the key on! Here is a link to a video. https://youtu.be/JicWYpdZuL0

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Re: Engine miss

Post by Quickm007 » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:29 pm

Congrat Art,

Run really smooth! Good job! I'm happy for you. I face up many chalenges either with my 1911. I could imagine all efforts you did. Thank you sharing the video, really cool.

All the best,
Super Mario Bross ;)

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Re: Engine miss

Post by Mustang1964s » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:10 pm

Thank you for posting the results.
Those little buggers get any and everywhere.


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Re: Engine miss

Post by R.V.Anderson » Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:43 pm

Runs very nice! Thanks for posting that video. Glad you got things sorted out.


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Engine miss

Post by John kuehn » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:29 pm

Glad you got it going! Amazing something so simple can cause so much head scratching and trouble. No telling how long that nest had been there!

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