Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

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blauvelt
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Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Fri May 01, 2020 2:05 pm

Good Day,

Slowly working away on my Speedster, doing a bit of fabrication here, a touch bad math there, some measure once, cut three times and it is still to short experiences. In general having a bit of fun. Came to the question of valves, the block I am using has been massaged a bit and noticed the valve holes aren't exactly stock. For those who have increased the valve sizes, beyond...just oversized, what did you do? I am assuming I should run hardened seats. What did you do about the valves? Do you order the large valve kit from Mr. Yapp and cut down the stems and press in A guides? Do you try and find a modern valve with a smaller stem diameter and go that way? Have heard that 327 bowtie valves can work? Will try and attach a picture to illustrate my situation.

Thanks,

Doug


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Fri May 01, 2020 2:10 pm

Pictures for the visually inclined.
Attachments
IMG_8207 (1).jpg
61004719256__045F3D44-71CD-4B3E-8288-9E305AEB1966 (1).JPG


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Scott_Conger » Fri May 01, 2020 2:18 pm

Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Dan McEachern » Fri May 01, 2020 4:40 pm

You can't put A guides in a T block- too large a diameter and A valves are way too long for a T block. You don't need to put hard seats in either. Look at using small block Chevy valves- Regular size intakes and use FI exhaust valve if your exhaust seats have been enlarged. Chevy valves have 11/32" stems and you should be able to enlarge the stock T guide bores.

I see the exhaust seats on your block have been enlarged as well- try FI exhaust valves in both the intake and exhaust.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Kerry » Fri May 01, 2020 5:56 pm

From Langs.
part No 3052M
Modern valve, size 1.543 head dia, and .342 stem, (.030 over size stem from std T block) any bigger valves and you could have head gasket problems.
Agree with Dan, those seats will clean up. fitting new seat usually will warp the bore which wouldn't be a problem if you are re-boring the block as well.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Dan McEachern » Fri May 01, 2020 6:06 pm

Kerry- pretty sure those ports are too big for the Langs valve.


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Fri May 01, 2020 6:14 pm

Thank you Dan, are those “fi” exhaust valves? Or F 1? Doesn’t look like the guides have been touched.
Dan McEachern wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:40 pm
You can't put A guides in a T block- too large a diameter and A valves are way too long for a T block. You don't need to put hard seats in either. Look at using small block Chevy valves- Regular size intakes and use FI exhaust valve if your exhaust seats have been enlarged. Chevy valves have 11/32" stems and you should be able to enlarge the stock T guide bores.

I see the exhaust seats on your block have been enlarged as well- try FI exhaust valves in both the intake and exhaust.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Les Schubert » Fri May 01, 2020 6:24 pm

Here is another option
Fordson tractor intake valves. With my own head gasket

Prus head. It clears the valves nicely
9B597AF9-81E1-49DC-8A20-496D78C60B51.jpeg
Attachments
Using stock T retainers
Using stock T retainers
8912805F-78CB-4FAD-896A-29B36AC74DC1.jpeg


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Fri May 01, 2020 6:34 pm

Think the block has been bored out. Calipers show it at 3.858 inches.
Kerry wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 5:56 pm
From Langs.
part No 3052M
Modern valve, size 1.543 head dia, and .342 stem, (.030 over size stem from std T block) any bigger valves and you could have head gasket problems.
Agree with Dan, those seats will clean up. fitting new seat usually will warp the bore which wouldn't be a problem if you are re-boring the block as well.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Kerry » Fri May 01, 2020 6:42 pm

Looks like you will have a problem with pistons, that's 108 thou over STD so you might be biting the bullet and do the lot on this block, new seats and cylinder sleeves and bring it back to using T parts.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Fri May 15, 2020 5:29 pm

Found a shop just outside town that seems to be ok. Called ahead, talked a bit about the motor. Went over today, he had a SBC exhaust valve that dropped in. 1.625 head. We did some measuring, gives about 0.125 clearance to the closest contact side of the head (recent production Sherman out of LA, flat head v8 cc) nearest the ports, so with massaging with a die grinder, the intake will not be shrouded. I think having good flow all around the valve will be better than trying to squeeze in 1.70 or bigger. There isn’t a lot of clearance over the top of the valve, does anyone have the math about how much space there needs to be to ensure good laminar flow all around? It is like 0.25”?
Dan McEachern wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 4:40 pm
You can't put A guides in a T block- too large a diameter and A valves are way too long for a T block. You don't need to put hard seats in either. Look at using small block Chevy valves- Regular size intakes and use FI exhaust valve if your exhaust seats have been enlarged. Chevy valves have 11/32" stems and you should be able to enlarge the stock T guide bores.

I see the exhaust seats on your block have been enlarged as well- try FI exhaust valves in both the intake and exhaust.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Kevin Pharis » Fri May 15, 2020 7:56 pm

I’ve been running 1.72” intake and 1.625” exhaust chebby valves for 10+ years in my Sherman head speedster. If I remember correctly, there is only 1 hard seat in the motor to repair a really recessed seat. The cast iron performs fine as a valve seat in a relatively low performance engine, but is also relative to the exhaust valve material characteristics. Sherman head profile was slightly machined to clean up and gasket was solid copper (your welcome for the CAD profile Les). I haven’t noticed any negative impact as far a flow characteristics. My little flatty keeps up with the OHV guys just fine👍


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Allan » Fri May 15, 2020 10:12 pm

I agree with Frank. The block needs to be sleeved, back to standard makes most sense. Might as well fit hardened seats at the same time and deck the block as part of the procedure. Then you have a new blank canvas to work with.
Allan from down under.


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Sat May 16, 2020 1:14 am

Thank you Allan.
Allan wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 10:12 pm
I agree with Frank. The block needs to be sleeved, back to standard makes most sense. Might as well fit hardened seats at the same time and deck the block as part of the procedure. Then you have a new blank canvas to work with.
Allan from down under.
Last edited by blauvelt on Sat May 16, 2020 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Sat May 16, 2020 1:25 am

Thanks Kevin, when you machined the head did you surface it or rework the cc? This head is one of the new ones out of LA, haven’t checked the cc volumes, outside of a quick depth check with calipers. Partially inclined to wait until the crank is ground and the bearings set before calling Cunningham to sled rod length. Would like to get a bit of quench out of it. I wonder why guys didn’t use the Willys “go-devil” cc? It isn’t KLDH good, but so much better than the flatly v8. That said, I really like the Prus head, he put some good thought into it. Now, how to get 40 thou for some proper quench, with out jacking the compression way up.

Your T always made me happy. At 6’1”, not a lot of speedsters can fit us.
Kevin Pharis wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:56 pm
I’ve been running 1.72” intake and 1.625” exhaust chebby valves for 10+ years in my Sherman head speedster. If I remember correctly, there is only 1 hard seat in the motor to repair a really recessed seat. The cast iron performs fine as a valve seat in a relatively low performance engine, but is also relative to the exhaust valve material characteristics. Sherman head profile was slightly machined to clean up and gasket was solid copper (your welcome for the CAD profile Les). I haven’t noticed any negative impact as far a flow characteristics. My little flatty keeps up with the OHV guys just fine👍


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blauvelt
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by blauvelt » Sat May 16, 2020 2:24 am

Will update with what the machine shop comes up with, thanks every one for the help.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by mtntee20 » Sat May 16, 2020 8:32 am

I have read and re-read all the posts on this thread. I am truly sorry if I seem to have missed the boat here BUT, the cylinder bore was NEVER measured with the calipers in the above photos. The valve seats/chambers appear to be the subject of the caliper measurements above. THUS, I am not aware of any cylinder dimensions that would or would not require sleaves.

The vernier caliper above appears to measure in both imperial (top) and metric (bottom) thus the measurement appears to be 3.858 centimeters.

Please accept my apologies if I have missed something in/from the above posts.


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Kevin Pharis » Sat May 16, 2020 10:56 am

blauvelt wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 1:25 am
Thanks Kevin, when you machined the head did you surface it or rework the cc?

Now, how to get 40 thou for some proper quench, with out jacking the compression way up.
[/quote]

I have run several Sherman heads over the years, on a couple motors. My first Sherman was about 5:1... but the casting was machined out of parallel and so was sumpin like 4:1 at one end, and 6:1 at the other...?! The head was later welded up in areas, then surfaced 1/8” and cc machined for consistency. It ended up at about 6.5:1 with custom fit quench areas. The motor ran much smoother after all the head work.

The head I run now was a high compression version of the Sherman head. The cc does not kick up over the valve area, but instead is rather tall over the piston with no quench, and is nearly consistent depth for the entire chamber. I did work the head for valve clearance and piston position, but the head still measures out at 7.25:1 ratio with the A crank and .060” overbore. I would have used my old head with all the work into it... but I swapped motors and the head wouldn’t clear the new pistons... was a sad day😔

I’ve always had a heating issue with the Sherman flat heads, and it presents itself in the form of severe detonation and overheating of the rear cylinders. I eventually went to a water pump as when running at high speeds (2500+ rpm), #3 and 4 pistons would begin to stick in the bores after a few minutes. The water pump solved the pistons sticking, but I still suffer from severe detonation at high engine loads. So I have learned to drive with a lighter foot... and believe it or not, this has noticeably increased the lifespan of the drivetrain components too😉

This fall I hope to convert over to the Akron OHV... and we’ll see what kind of problems I run into then...?


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Les Schubert » Sat May 16, 2020 11:49 am

Kevin
My experience with the Sherman head has been MUCH better than yours apparently.
Back about 1980 I built a A cranked pressure oiled T block with a BIG cam (A cam and full race grind). Ultimately the Sherman head (high compression version). The ignition is a Vega distributor on my own drive using the centrifugal advance. Ultimately I modified the intake to a 4 runner divided with a Stromberg 94 carb.
One of the smarter things I did was the clutch with only 5 plates (the name escapes me momentarily)!! Up to 2000 rpm at full throttle the clutch will slip. I figure this saves the drive line.
If you would like to pick my brain, please feel free to contact me.
Attached photo of the first version with a Corvair turbo!
788D9D39-B0D6-4EEE-9FD0-D3D4D9EA1B96.jpeg


Les Schubert
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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Les Schubert » Sat May 16, 2020 11:50 am

And “the hot chick” is still married to me!


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Re: Valves, springs, guides and tappets - Speedster

Post by Trentb » Sat May 16, 2020 12:19 pm

Regarding valve seats:

Have you ever had the opportunity to look over a stripped NOS cylinder block?

I have, and I was surprised by the valve seats. In a new block it almost looks as if there is no valve seat at all. If you look closely at the seats you can barely see a very narrow seat. The ones I have seen look like the seat is 1/16” or less.

I think this was intentional at the Ford factory. Machining valves, guides and seats at that time was no where near as precise as what we expect today. To get a new valve to seat it had to be ground in extensively, hence a disassembled motor usually has seats that are both deep and wide.

I learned about setting up Model T valves from an expert automotive machinist. He build race car engines that win, so I think he knows what he is doing. He taught me to use modern Ford 351 valves. These have the right head diameter, usually made from first class materials, and often come with a stellitete tip at the small end. They are also pretty much the right length.

First I true up each of the new valves in my Sioux valve grinder to an angle of 44 degrees. I check the run out on the valve face frequently during grinding. I strive for less than .001” runout. Next I cut the seats using the Neway system. Three angles, 30, 45 and 60 degrees. I also use an indicator to check the concentricity of the seat too, striving for no more than .001” runout. The difference in the valve seat angle helps insure a tight fit between the seat and face. These require little if any grinding to get a perfect seal. I time my valves using a degree wheel. I have been very satisfied with the result and a good valve job lasts for many years.

These is more to be said, but this is enough for now.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess

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