13T - E&J Model 666

[Darin Hull]

Gentlemen,

Reading previous forum discussions, is it reasonable to believe these E&J Model 666 were not original on the 13T, 251,xxx? What year would they be if that is the case?

On black and brass E&Js, I’m guessing the black areas were steel versus brass being painted black?

I spent a few hours today doing a vinegar soak and then polish with Mother’s Mag & Aluminum. Still not done but heading in the right direction. Since I had plenty time to let the mind wander, had a question about the horn. I’ve observed pictures of 13Ts with a black and brass horn, I currently have an all brass horn. We’re the horns different than the headlamps? Do they have brass painted black versus being partially made of steel?

I’ve included some pics.

Thank you for your time,
Darin

[TWrenn]

Not an expert, but the judging guidelines do call for the 13's horn to be Black and brass. Mine also was all brass, and believe me
it killed me to have to paint it mostly black to fall in line with the guidelines. But having it judged at an International Annual tour, (it got the "gold"), it was worth it. And now that it's been that way for several years, I've grown to like it. Make sure you have it
mounted that it looks like it's "upside down"! Another common mistake that is made not doing it that way.

Too bad you need to pant the body of those beautiful lamps black also!!

[Darin Hull]

The rough horn

[Scott Rosenthal]

Hello Darin:
Some have proposed that Ford may have introduced the Black and Brass standards as early as mid 1912. I do not at all doubt this having seen seeming original Brown #100 and #105 oil lamps that have remnants of what appears to be early black finish, where in some cases, these entire lamps are not painted. Some have a polished brass chimney cap, some have brass frames for the glass. Bruce McCalley stated that some single twist horns (1912-?) were polished brass, but no quantified data that I am aware of says what the drop off date(s) for this may have been. Curiously, the Brown #19 head lamps were used for 1912, however I have never seen a seemingly original #19 that appears to have black finish. The 1913 Brochure photo of the Town Car shows these lamps with Black finish, however this an illustration as opposed to a photograph, so accuracy here may be questioned.

I believe your horn is correct for early 1913 and is correctly attached with a machine screw and nut, where I presume the similar oval base horn attached with wood screws. I'm curious whether the machine screw and nut arrangement would include either a lock washer or possibly a cotter pin? Much appreciation for any thoughts here.
Regards,
Scott

[Wkndead]

Here is an original Brown 105 with original black paint. Is it for a late 12 or 13?

[TWrenn]

Scott is correct, that is a correct '13 horn, and thankfully mounted correctly also!! (Used to be a thorn in Royce Peterson's side!)
However, I really believe that the machine screws were not "factory". Maybe Larry Smith knows better, as he's probably got more
'13 knowledge than anyone around. The Judging Guide doesn't specify unfortunately, and all the pics in Bruce's Encyclopedia are indistinguishable. On my '13, naturally with a repro firewall, the horn is screwed in place. These screws are a b--ch to put in, so I suspect yours was installed with what would be only slightly easier to handle bolt/nuts. I find it hard to believe someone would
go from the "easier route" on mine and use those God Forsaken screws!!
Another thing to look at on your '13 would be the front fender irons. I'd be willing to bet most of todays '13s now have the wrong, earlier fender irons that have the so-called "Vee" shape at the underside of it next to the mounting bracket holes. These are wrong. Those started in '14. '13s should have the rounded extrusion at the bottom bracket area. Just saying.

[TWrenn]

Richard, I would say yes, probably for a late '12, definitely for a '13. It looks all brass, with the body painted black.
My early '12 had an E & J taillight which was about the same other than the font securing handles, and was all brass. It was gorgeous.

[Colin Mavins]

I know of at least 10 1913 Ts that are all brass like the 12 are including the windshields and are original cars so your car may be correct, As for judging I would not be concerned just have fun .

[Allan]

So, when did the same brass tops but with the the offset 66, come into the picture? Were any of these fitted to all brass lights?

Allan form down under.

[Corey Walker]

I’ve got an E&J 66 lamp that has a nickel plated body under the black paint.

[Allan]

Corey, is the nickel plated body brass or steel?
I asked this question originally, as I have a pair of all brass E and J headlights, in pieces, and these have 66 tops. I have no idea of the history of the lamps/kit I have.

Allan from down under.

[Corey Walker]

Nickel plated steel.

[Darin Hull]

The oil lamp lights on the 13T are black and brass. I worked on polishing them up today.

On the horn, was that typically all brass with everything but the bell painted black? Or was it a brass and steel combo?

Darin

[TWrenn]

Darin, the "argument" if you will about the horn is almost like the argument about oil. Yes, plenty of cars, probably very early '13s had all brass horns, I suspect they were leftover from late '12s. But in the spirit of "correctness", it is generally assumed to follow the Judging Guidelines, not just for judging, but basically used as a supplementary guide to the all important Encyclopedia put out by the venerable Bruce McCalley, RIP. And that guideline specifically states the horn is "black and brass", the brass being only the screen and rim around it. Now, whether or not later into '13 & '14 the body was steel, I don't know. I do know as I mentioned earlier, mine was also all brass, but I reluctantly painted the body black so as to "fall in line" with the majority. Hope this helps.

[TWrenn]

Forgot something about your nice looking sidelamp...the bracket. Does this lamp slide onto a separate bracket, or is the bracket "integral" to the lamp? Cause '13s lamps slide/clamp onto the bracket. The lamps with the so-called built-in bracket are '14. A few '13s are seen with them, probably due to replacement over the years.

[billgall]

For a 13, the correct E&J headlights are model 66. The bonnet (top part with the holes along the sides) is marked the same as the all brass 666 lights, but the left-most 6 is missing, so the resulting 66 is offset to the right.

Corey Walker, is your nickel plated lamp a 666 or a 66? A 66 will attract a magnet to the body (where the nickel plating is), but a 666 will not as it's brass.

I have a 66 that was copper plated instead of nickel. Darin Hull, you might be able to do some horse trading and end up with two 66 headlights correct for your car. I'd consider a trade if you're interested, but you ought to be sure that you can end up with a pair of true 66's and not a mismatched 666 and 66.

[Darin Hull]

These side lamps slide and clamp onto a separate bracket.

Darin

[TWrenn]

According to the encyclopedia the 666 were also used on the '13s, along with a few Victors, Browns and Corcorans.
His triple-6 (I hate the actual number) should be considered okay.

[critterpainter]

This has been an interesting topic for me to read. Although my headlights and sidelights are currently packed away, my 14 does have have a few features being described. My horn IS held to the firewall by two miserable brass screws. Original? I do not know but they are not fun. My sidelights are packed away, but they DO slide into brackets on the firewall. My car has an engine # 361466 with an Oct 26 13 casting date.

[TWrenn]

Bill, your sidelights would be correct for your engine number. Your '14 is a very early one. About mid-point to even late '14 the so-called "built in" bracket lights showed up.

Re your horn..I believe yours should be the oval mount, but since your '14 is an early one, it too may have the round mounting bracket common to the '13. And yes, those screws are absolutely horrible. I do believe they're original. Maybe Larry Smith will
chime in, he's pretty knowledgeable about these '13s, and I'm sure the bracket mounting hardware was the same for both years.

[critterpainter]

I checked my horn bracket and it is round, so its an early horn.
When my Uncle acquired the car in 1950, it apparently had earlier brass lights on it, but the "experts" of the late 50's and early 60's told him that they were wrong for 1914 so they were changed for a black and brass pair. Oh well...

Bill

[TWrenn]

Well Bill, at least they knew what they were saying.
Too bad the '13s & '14s didn't keep the "all brass" look going,
but I know for money reasons it had to be.