Rock Maple spokes and fellows

[Geoff]

Hi Forum
Would Rock Maple [hard maple] be suitable to make wood spokes and fellows from. I have a supply of rock maple in Australia but no supply of Hickory and plan to flat cut 2 pieces of rock maple and laminate them together to give extra strength to help with side force on the spokes. I plan on using 6 laminate strips of rock maple 4.5mm thick glued with waterproof Selleys Durabond adhesive as it is strong, waterproof and flexible. When the spokes and fellows are assembled I will machine the outside diameter to 3mm larger than the inside diameter of the rim and then heat the rim to expand so it fits over the fellow then shrink it on with cold water. I plan to drill the centre for the hub to the same size as the hub to give a snug fit and as an added precaution pack around the end of the spokes and hub with a suitable epoxy to prevent the spokes relying on the hub bolts to support the end of the spokes. Any feed back or advice would be appreciated. I had previously made spokes out of a timber called Kapur but am not confident that this is a suitable timber for strength

[tom_strickling]

I think when it comes to wood, water and glue. Water will always find a way in. I would not want laminated spokes for sure.

[Mark Osterman]

I used to be a musical instrument maker ... now I make cameras. Over the years I’ve seen a lot of things made by people who thought a non traditional wood might be a great alternative but it turned out to be a disaster for the particular application. The most humorous was someone who used spalted wood for an instrument neck. I would suggest that there is a really good reason why hickory was used instead of oak or maple in car wheel spokes.

[Chris Barker]

I don't know how your Rock Maple compares with American maples, but according to this table, all American maples are greatly inferior to Shagbark Hickory.
https://www.woodworkweb.com/woodwork-to ... ngths.html

[CudaMan]

Stick with hickory. It has the best combination of high strength (ability to carry a load) and a high work of fracture (resistance to shattering, otherwise known as toughness).

https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplg ... 3/ch04.pdf

[Humblej]

No. Do not reinvent the wheel.

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

"Would Rock Maple [hard maple] be suitable to make wood spokes and fellows from."

No.

[Adam]

Absolutely DO NOT USE MAPLE!!! It breaks like glass! If you put it in a press it will snap in half and both pieces will fly. When you put hickory in a press it bends before it fractures. Past the bending point all the fibers hold together like a rope to a certain point.

[CudaMan]

Adam's statement perfectly summarizes the difference between a wood that has high strength but low work of fracture (Oak or Maple) versus a wood with high strength AND a high work of fracture (Hickory).

[BobShirleyAtlantaTx]

There is a reason for hickory, have you ever seen a maple hammer or axe handle in commercial production? Or any other wood?

[Altair]

I don't think Rock Maple is as bad as some believe, I have made spokes from Oak and Walnut and they haven't fallen apart yet. We baby these cars and they rarely get over 20 MPH and yes some can do over 40 but not on a regular basis. In the day these cars were driven on rutty gravel and dirt roads, used for driving machinery, racing, plowing and tilling and carrying unorthodox loads inside and outside the car. To day we cautiously put down a paved road at limited speeds looking out for someone who may plow in to you. Hickory wheels or not it doesn't matter if 3000 LBS of uncontrolled metal is bearing down on you and destroys your car.
I made my fellows from oak and laminated 8 1/8" strips, I left the oak out in the rain on the grass for a month until they were thoroughly soaked then formed them in to a rim until dry after a week or so they were dry and remained curved then they were glued and clamped back in to the rim. The fellows are made in two halves and riveted to the rim and joined with two metal clasps riveted in place. Prior to installation the wood fellows were soaked in linseed oil and allowed to dry before painting. These wood components are under compression therefore there is limited to no risk of breakage. The fellows have to be marked and drilled precisely. The inside rim diameter is the first and the most important number and the remainder of the measurements depend on that reference. The outside circumference of a 30 X 3 1/2" wheel is 59 51/64", the inside diameter is 21- 27/32", the inside circumference of the fellow is 68-5/8". Divide 68-5/8 X 12 = 5.719 inches center between each spoke. 6 spokes are inserted into a half fellow and placed in the rim the other 6 are also placed in the other half fellow and placed in the rim and forced with a press or big wood mallet. When the assembly will not go together each spoke must be removed and lightly kissed on a drum sander until the assembly will tightly fit together. When tightly fitted the wood fellow is drilled through the holes on the rim and riveted in place. Heating of the rim is not necessary as the entire assembly is pressed together and riveted in place. Residual humidity in the wood at assembly is as important as the fit.
Some wood is dried to almost zero then a controlled amount of humidity is reintroduced before machining and assembly. Wheels made and assembled in a high humidity atmosphere and sent to a regularly low humidity environment may become loose. I have a friend that was precise wood worker and did excellent inlaid work, he made a table that was immaculate and precise and sent it to a dryer climate in another province and it cracked in several places.

[Mike Thomas]

I found that it is pretty hard to improve on 100 years of good results. Especially given the fact that you are going to ride on these things. Have you seen what happens when the spokes give out on a Model T wheel? Pretty scary ride until things stop, and then you can have another ride, either the ambulance or hearse.

[Allan]

The only alternative timber I would consider is Spotted Gum. This is used commercially for axe and tool handles just like hickory. I do not know how it would take bending to make wooden felloes. However, it is red/brown in colour, so is best used with painted wheels.

Allan from down under.

[Altair]

I am not suggesting that my spokes and fellows are an improvement, they would be an acceptable alternative and the probability of a wheel just falling apart and causing a serious accident to the level as described is negligible. Most broken wheels are a result of gross negligence, abuse and poor maintenance.
There is a picture of a broken Oak wheel that comes up from time to time, the car was being towed and the wheels were sideways as it was towed along a paved road until the wheel broke, immediately the Oak was to blame. I don't think Hickory would have done any better under the circumstances. The operator of the towing vehicle is totally to blame not the Oak spokes.

[tinman080]

Invariably when a car changes hands prior maintenance records and knowledge of the vehicle is lost down the line. Substituting an off-standard type of spoke could and probably would cause safety issues down the road for someone else. ''Fixing it my way'' is a temptation few of us can refuse, but a 100% absolutely recognized safety standard should never be ignored. My 2 cents worth. Think of the next guy....or his grandkids.

[SurfCityGene]

Oh Oh another guy wants to use some special wood for making spokes for his Model T that he'll just drive a little around town on side streets for a parade.
You mention the famed Ralph Ricks, RDR RIP. I'm sure he's not in peace right now since he did many extensive tests of wood spokes. Yes, you were right about his towing his T and the spokes breaking but his test results showed that hickory would most likely have survived the incident.

Someone posted about how carefully we ALL drive our T's around on nicely paved roads about 25 or maybe even up to 40!! There are many different people here and some are the most cautions drivers and will only drive their cars during daylight hours 10 to 15 mph just into high pedal. Maybe that's good because of the condition of their car? There also are some guys that drive their cars like a bat out of Hell being chased by who knows what! You can bet their cars are in Very good mechanical condition. We have here in SoCal some of the worst roads in the country!! We don't have freezing winters but the pot holes and rough uneven repairs here are unmatched anywhere!

It was mentioned also that at some point in time someone else will own this car and may not know what type of wood the spooks are made of and be the driving in the Montana 500 going down the interstate out of Butte topping 70 and hit a hole that might result in a bad day.

Ralph just sent me a thought and said please use the proper type of wood for your spokes!

[Jerry VanOoteghem]

Pretty much, everybody thinks they drive safely, at safe speeds, on safe roads, etc. I guess I do too. But, sometimes we find ourselves in situations not of our own doing, like swerving when somebody cuts us off or finding ourselves suddenly in deep sand. Fill in the blanks with your own experiences, we've all been there. It's THEN that you want the best possible material in your wheels. That material is HICKORY. Who are we to second guess people who have done extensive testing and research in the days when nearly every wheel was made with wood spokes? I wouldn't ask my grandfather about integrated circuits and I wouldn't tell anyone at the turn of the last century they were wrong about how to make wooden wheels. Why do we keep having these debates??????

[SurfCityGene]

Ya Jerry your right.

You made me recall a near tragic incident a few years ago during the Montana 500 during the last leg of the day and it was a Terrible cross wind coming back on the Interstate. A T going down a good hill with a turn bearing to the left at full speed when a nut came off and the car had NO STEEERING!! This was at great speed and lucky the car veered left avoiding certain death off the right shoulder. The car spun around in the grass median and came to rest pointing back up the hill. When the trouble truck arrived a just second later my brother offered a nut so the driver could continue and not loose too much time but after that ride he declined driving the rest of the day probably wanting a stiff drink instead!!

Man, sometimes you just can't beat being Lucky!!