The number of Model T's must still be going up

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John Warren
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The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by John Warren » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:34 am

I have brought back one Model T from the dead and have three others that I am working on. Many in our club have done the same. What say you. With us doing that, does it make the values go down or go up ? I know that it made the value of mine to go up. To me it is more about the people I meet and to enjoy some of the usta life.
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Oldav8tor
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Oldav8tor » Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:11 am

John, as you pointed out, value is relative... nobody (almost) joins the T community to make money. The only way I can see a negative impact on $ value would be if you had a whole bunch of similar cars come up for sale at the same time. Model T's are still scarce enough that the demand will be there. I'm new to the hobby but once I learned how much fun it is and got some friends involved, I see interest growing - not declining. These new people will need something to drive :-)
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Jeff Hood » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:18 pm

Sadly, for every Model T that is brought back to life, there is another one slowly rotting away in someone's garage or shed. You know, it was grand dad's pride and joy, he restored it back in the 50's, 60's, or 70's. It has 4 flat tires, and hasn't seen the light of day in 40 years and is piled high with boxes of junk. Nobody in the family has any interest in driving it, but it has sentimental value, and it's worth "LOTS" of money, you know, way more than what anyone has offered. They are just trying to "take advantage of us." Eventually it will end up outside under a tattered blue tarp slowly returning to the condition it was in when grand dad found it.


George Andreasen
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by George Andreasen » Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:06 pm

Jeff Hood wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:18 pm
Sadly, for every Model T that is brought back to life, there is another one slowly rotting away in someone's garage or shed. You know, it was grand dad's pride and joy, he restored it back in the 50's, 60's, or 70's. It has 4 flat tires, and hasn't seen the light of day in 40 years and is piled high with boxes of junk. Nobody in the family has any interest in driving it, but it has sentimental value, and it's worth "LOTS" of money, you know, way more than what anyone has offered. They are just trying to "take advantage of us." Eventually it will end up outside under a tattered blue tarp slowly returning to the condition it was in when grand dad found it.
That's one of my pet peeves.........as soon as I inquire about a derelict car or part, it seems that some mysterious collector with pockets full of greenbacks "just offered me $10,000 for it". Seems like $10,000 is some kind of magic amount. This is of course, a crude attempt to start any price negotiations at a high point because they KNOW it's worth a fortune. Sadly, the vehicle or part will simply sit there begging to be saved but human greed will prevent it. I usually tell the owner "If someone offered you ten grand for that thing, you should have sold it to him"........then walk away.

The other situation is when an item is spotted, slowly sinking in the mud after 40 years of outside "storage", but the owner refuses to part with it at all. Sentimental value? No, either he or his son is going to "reee-store it someday". I've seen the same vehicle years later, trying to gracefully sink into a pile of iron oxide. Sad.


Raoul von S.
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Raoul von S. » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:24 pm

American culture bases everything on dollar value FIRST. All other considerations a distant
second, third, etc .... You see it in most of the people posting here, even though they clearly
"get it" about the value of fun and friendship and inner contentment. It is always about
"investment" or getting one's money out (or back out) of whatever.

I have many friends who scrimp on everything, so they can find some "jolly" in the afterlife
in leaving money to their kids. I find this not only odd, but destructive. My parents left me
exactly nothing, but a boot to the posterior and a finger pointed to the door. What they REALLY
gave in in doing this is a sense of accomplishment and self-reliance and pride. Things I find
far more valuable than some inheritance.

If course, a hefty trust fund account would be *nice*, but without the character building of
earning it oneself, there is a high risk of turning the recipient into just another gratitude-free
individual.

I often wish people placed more interest in the meaningful value and disregard the money
angle.
"Working today, for a seamless tomorrow"

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Ruxstel24
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:43 pm

Raoul, I happily inherited my T last year...
I was told that my father (who passed 15 years ago), wanted me to have the car. Absolutely sentimental to me and I think Pop knew I and only I of his 3 kids, would cherish it and keep it alive. The car was part of the family before I was !! And I have the "greasy thumb" touch of the bunch. :lol:
That being said, I have no $$ invested and expect no $$ return !!

If time, money and health hold up long enough, I may add a speedster to the surviving T list. 8-)


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Scott_Conger » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:02 pm

Your path to a million dollars in the model T hobby begins by starting with 2 million dollars.
Scott Conger

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Ruxstel24
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:14 pm

Scott_conger wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:02 pm
Your path to a million dollars in the model T hobby begins by starting with 2 million dollars.
Reminds me of my 77 Harley...
I have $25K-$30K and 20 years making it the way I wanted and I could sell it for $6000 with no trouble at all !! :lol:

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varmint
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by varmint » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:48 pm

Supply...
Ford Motor Company is not producing any model Ts. So the number is not going up.
There are many in existence, some are restored, some not, some most people don't think can get restored.
Quite often a Model T gets hacked up and sold for parts. This makes the number go down.
Some are converted to hot rods and others to rat rods. In my opinion, this makes the number also go down.
Demand...
Fewer people are around each year that remember when a T was a family car. So fewer have a connection to it.
Restoring '70's and '80's cars is the new fad.
Basically, both the supply and demand are going down.
Most of the time, restoring a car makes its dollar value go up.
Vern (Vieux Carre)


Scottio

Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Scottio » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:00 pm

Even more depressing is ( pet peeve of mine ) drop a sbc and auto in there and the value will damn near double.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Raoul von S. » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:02 pm

Ruxstel24 wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:43 pm
Raoul, I happily inherited my T last year...
I was told that my father (who passed 15 years ago), wanted me to have the car. Absolutely sentimental to me and I think Pop knew I and only I of his 3 kids, would cherish it and keep it alive. The car was part of the family before I was !! And I have the "greasy thumb" touch of the bunch. :lol:
That being said, I have no $$ invested and expect no $$ return !!

If time, money and health hold up long enough, I may add a speedster to the surviving T list. 8-)
=========================

That kind of inheritance is the best .... IF the one inheriting is the kind of loon (I say that AS a
certified loon) that will appreciate/cherish the gift. I wish my old man had been deeply committed
to a teens-early twenties Packard or something similar. Instead, he was the kind of car guy that
traded Mom's 66 Mustang fastback in to pay retail for a Pinto. Sounds like you chose your father
better than I did mine ! 👍
"Working today, for a seamless tomorrow"

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Charlie B in N.J.
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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:17 pm

The number of cars being returned to the road is going up. It always is as their being found/repaired regularly. The only way that # goes down is probably due to something say like an accident or a fire or whatever totally destroys it. Obviously the total # of cars made isn't going up but the # of found cars is.
Forget everything you thought you knew.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by mtntee20 » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:22 pm

I have a question directly from the original post.

There are a number of Ts and TTs on the road (operating) today. There are a number of Ts and TTs in our hands that are being, or seriously going to be, restored to operational. As was brought up, there are a number of Ts and TTs that will NEVER be operational again as they were many years ago.

Does anyone have an estimate or guesstimate of how many Ts and TTs are being brought back to operational as COMPARED to the number of operational Ts and TTs being LOST?

Are we gaining in numbers or declining in numbers of operational Ts and TTs?



I have a perfect answer for those wanting megabucks for their "sentimental" items. As was said earlier: If someone offered you $10,000, you should have sold it to them. ADD this reply: "Here's my card (name, email, phone number). If you can't find a buyer, my offer is $XXX and I will stand behind that offer. Call me."

I had an uncle that loved to shop garage and estate sales. The "sentimental" or perceived values were often "Pie in the Sky". He would use the above tactic. Very often, he would get the call for the sale at his offered price. You have to be honest and give a fair offer. Many times, people have been programmed to believe ANYTHING old is worth a lot of money just because it's old. Model trains are notorious for this. Thus, it may be part of our responsibilities to educate them and be a good representative of the Model T community.

Alas, if education could be more like a nail, it would be easier to pound it into their heads.

Looking forward to your replies.
Terry


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Original Smith » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:29 pm

Are we talking real Model T's as they left the factory, or similar to that, or are we talking about a depot hack or a speedster that someone just threw together?


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Poppie » Sun Feb 10, 2019 9:48 pm

Gee Larry, That will start someone off.....N.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Mindless Automaton » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:20 pm

No, it's going down, just like our lives.
For every restored car you see there is 100 that get taken apart and thrown away.
Trust me,people intend to 'restore' something but have no idea how or what is involved.
Just check out any car forum, or if you want to harm your mental state, the gluttonous destruction fetish that is the HAMB.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by mtntee20 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:40 am

Let's say the number of operational Ts and TTs within the last 5 years AND the ones being built/restored in that period. As compared to the number that have been wrecked/permanently taken out of service.

I do not believe there is any way to tell how many Ts and TTs there are that will never be anything other than parts donors or scrap iron.

Just my gut feelings are the numbers are about equal. The vehicles returning to service as compared to the ones permanently ending service. Thus, the total number of Ts and TTs on the road today is fairly constant. As I said: Just my gut feeling. I have no numbers or references to source.

As for the real factual numbers, again, my gut feeling is a total of no more than 10,000 - 15,000 operational, "under construction", and museum/historically displayed Ts and TTs world wide. That would leave just about 15,000,000 that have been scrapped, are being scrapped, parts donors, and are just rusting into oblivion.

My gut feeling numbers may well be totally incorrect and that is why I asked the esteemed brotherhood for their opinions.

Thank You,
Tery

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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Barth_Tool_Co » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:47 am

George Andreasen wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 6:06 pm
Jeff Hood wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:18 pm
Sadly, for every Model T that is brought back to life, there is another one slowly rotting away in someone's garage or shed. You know, it was grand dad's pride and joy, he restored it back in the 50's, 60's, or 70's. It has 4 flat tires, and hasn't seen the light of day in 40 years and is piled high with boxes of junk. Nobody in the family has any interest in driving it, but it has sentimental value, and it's worth "LOTS" of money, you know, way more than what anyone has offered. They are just trying to "take advantage of us." Eventually it will end up outside under a tattered blue tarp slowly returning to the condition it was in when grand dad found it.
That's one of my pet peeves.........as soon as I inquire about a derelict car or part, it seems that some mysterious collector with pockets full of greenbacks "just offered me $10,000 for it". Seems like $10,000 is some kind of magic amount. This is of course, a crude attempt to start any price negotiations at a high point because they KNOW it's worth a fortune. Sadly, the vehicle or part will simply sit there begging to be saved but human greed will prevent it. I usually tell the owner "If someone offered you ten grand for that thing, you should have sold it to him"........then walk away.

The other situation is when an item is spotted, slowly sinking in the mud after 40 years of outside "storage", but the owner refuses to part with it at all. Sentimental value? No, either he or his son is going to "reee-store it someday". I've seen the same vehicle years later, trying to gracefully sink into a pile of iron oxide. Sad.
Utterly frustrating to no end...

I spent a year looking for a nice T and almost "to a T" I ran into the same scenario. I couldn't get past what the unknowledgeable seller felt he had in terms of value. The folks had obviously done little or no research and just "felt" it was worth what they were asking. Too many games... darn shame, saw some nice cars I would liked to have had but %100 above market value just wasn't going to happen for a car they were sure "just needs a little work" to "drive good for an old car" covered in 40 years of dust. I think these type of seller just want you to take their feelings as gospel and gratefully just fork over the cash so they can be rid of dad's/grandpa's old car they have zero interest in (besides the pay day).
... and my number is Beechwood 4-5789
1926 Touring - "Corrina"


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by StanHowe » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:03 pm

There are dozens of T'S for sale every day at fair prices. I posted a few months ago about several good project T'S just out of long outdoor storage in eastern Montana. Last time I talked to him he had sold one.
These are projects. If you want a restored one they cost more money.
I've told people for years to watch for auctions offering T'S.
Go early and look them over, be prepared to pay a fair price and take it home.
You can spend your entire life waiting for the proverbial " old Chevy" that turns out to be a low mileage Corvette or a T that was restored and ready to drive that the widow wants $200 for. If you would cheat her if you did find that deal you probably know what I would think.
Look around and step up with a legitimate offer and it won't take much to find one.
I have a nice 26/7 touring body I have been trying to sell for several years for $750. I have a dozen rebuildable engines for $2-500 each. Nobody will even look at the body, I've been offered $100 for an engine if I bring it to Chickasha, etc.
There is such a thing as making fair offers that also keeps the hobby going.
Too many people have been watching TV shows where they go back and forth on the price hoping to screw somebody out of something.
I had a woman here several years ago that tested my patience offering me 20% of whatever I priced anything at.
It was a waste of an afternoon and she is not welcome here again.
Don't be that person and you will be welcome to return.
I've sold millions of dollars of old cars, tractors, flywheel engines at auction in the last 37 years and probably $100,000 of my own cars and parts. Every auctioneer knows the cheap sob that wants to bid a dollar no matter what the item is worth and every parts seller knows a few cheap sob's that just waste your time and want everything for nothing.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by Dan Hatch » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:13 pm

What Stan says is right on. At Hershey last year I had my $1 and $5 tables. There were lots of good useable parts there. No one would look at them. "I do not want to get my hands dirty" was what I was told when I say the part they wanted maybe in there. There will not be one next year, cheaper for me to just take them to scrap yard then haul 1600 miles round trip.


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Re: The number of Model T's must still be going up

Post by signsup » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:11 pm

I read on the internet (so it must be true) that the general rule of thumb is 1 percent of all production cars before a certain date (1960's or so) are still "around". So that would be 160,000 Model T's from all years and all body styles. That doesn't mean at the local car show or registered with DMB, but just still "around". Any idea if that number is about right? Are we all just buying and selling the same 20,000 cars? And, if so, are there 140,000 sitting in the barns?
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