Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Sun May 24, 2020 8:38 pm

Pulled apart my transmission today... Had a cracked brake drum in two places. Ordering a new one.

Showing pics of old brake drum:
20200517_164011.jpg
20200524_130952.jpg
20200524_130943.jpg
Outside of clutch basket:
20200524_131254.jpg
Inside of clutch basket:
20200524_124636.jpg
Over half the clutch disks were either cracked or broken. Ordering Watts disks from R.V. Anderson.

Looks like I can't add more photos, so will in a reply.
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Sun May 24, 2020 8:48 pm

Clutch disks examples:
20200524_124508.jpg
20200524_124429.jpg
Slop/oplay in transmission. Seem excessive? All the bushings appear to be nice and tight... In triple or driven gear? Might this be some of the rocking back and forth I get when stopping?

https://youtu.be/UHnA6tFybW8

I ordered the transmission book from Snyder's..... But of course, started without it. 😒 :oops:

Wondering if I need a new clutch basket?

Low drum is a bit pitted, but seems solid, and bushing tight. Thinnest point is .128".

I made a clutch spring compresser from a couple flanges from Tractor Supply, as I didn't have any spare wheel hubs.
20200524_175639.jpg
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Stephen_heatherly
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:03 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Heatherly
Location: St. Louis MO

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sun May 24, 2020 8:51 pm

The clutch discs were cracked because the brake drum lugs are all chewed up. About half of the large plates in the transmission in my 23 runabout were broken too. The watts clutch works well, but with your new brake drum and some replacement original steel plates the stock clutch will work just as well. Save you a little money. :D

Stephen


Adam
Posts: 602
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
First Name: Adam
Last Name: Doleshal
Location: Wisconsin
MTFCA Number: 23809
MTFCI Number: 1
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Adam » Sun May 24, 2020 8:56 pm

The stock clutch, properly adjusted, with a good used spring (95 to 110#’s at 2”compression) will not slip and is nice and smooth. It also protects the engine and drive-train from unnecessary shock loads...


Stephen_heatherly
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:03 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Heatherly
Location: St. Louis MO

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Mon May 25, 2020 2:39 am

Adam wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:56 pm
The stock clutch, properly adjusted, with a good used spring (95 to 110#’s at 2”compression) will not slip and is nice and smooth. It also protects the engine and drive-train from unnecessary shock loads...
I couldn't agree more

Stephen


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon May 25, 2020 7:30 am

The spiral mark on your clutch basket is most likely a manufacturing mark and harmless. BUT, given the nature of all the other damage you've got, check it out to be sure. Clean it up and see if the spiral continues down in and through the slot, as a crack would do. I think you'll find that it won't, but again, check it out.

And yes, this would explain the rocking back & forth when you stop.

User avatar

John Warren
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Warren
Location: Henderson, Nevada

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by John Warren » Mon May 25, 2020 7:56 am

I have the watts clutch in my 26 touring and have enjoyed the free neutral, but it is not near as smooth as the stock one in my 25. The stock one is harder to start in the winter. Looks like you are headed in the right direction, good luck.
24-28 TA race car, 26 Canadian touring, 25 Roadster pickup, 14 Roadster, and 11AB Maxwell runabout
Keep it simple and keep a good junk pile if you want to invent something :P


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Mon May 25, 2020 9:22 am

At first glance, my triple gears do not appear to be worn, (although, admittedly, I need to take a much better look) and the bushings don't have wobble. All 3 triple gears plus the center driven gear all fell off the drum cluster when I pulled them off .... well ... they stayed on their shafts, at least, except for the center driven gear.
Triplegears.jpg
My question is, should the center gear move around the middle, when the triple gears are moved? By that, I mean it turns, but doesn't stay in the middle of the 3 triples, as it isn't on the brake shaft. The 2 keys came out when I pulled the drum cluster, as well.

I'm looking for the source of the play in the YouTube video, posted above.
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: VanOoteghem
Location: S.E. Michigan

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Mon May 25, 2020 10:41 am

Dennis,

The center gear, (a.k.a. the sun gear), should be a heavy press fit on it's shaft. They can be a bear to remove without the right puller. They should not fall off. As an aside, the clutch basket should also be a press fit on the main shaft.

Looking closely at your triple gear photo, at least 2 of the bronze bushings appear to seized on the triple pins, with the gears rotating about the bushing, rather than the gear/bushing assembly rotating about the pin. Sorry to add to your work list...


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Mon May 25, 2020 10:46 am

Hi, Jerry ...

Yes, the clutch basket was a pretty tough pull. My puller wouldn't stay in the basket pull holes from the inside, so I had to pull with the arms on the outside. No harm, no foul, I guess.

Hmm ... So I guess I need to check where the issue is on on the sun gear, then. I'll try putting it back on the shaft, to see how it fits. I assume it will still be loose. Need to check the brake shaft end to see if shows wear, and if not, then a new sun gear is in order?

Boy, these piece parts add up, eh? :-)
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Dan McEachern
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon May 25, 2020 10:54 am

If you find your brake drum shaft is worn, I make driven gears with undersize bores that allow use of slightly worn shafts.


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Mon May 25, 2020 11:00 am

Dan ...
Very good ... what should the shaft diameter be? ... and/or, what is the inside measurement of your driven gear?
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 2112
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
Location: Portland Or
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon May 25, 2020 12:41 pm

Ok so it's good that the clutch drum had to be pulled off, but what was also said is"plus the center driven gear all fell off the drum cluster". That is not good. It too needs to be a press fit, not loose on the shaft. So my take would be, you need a better driven gear too. Are you getting the brake drum with or with out the shaft?
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1921 Huckster
1925 Cut down pickup


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Mon May 25, 2020 2:40 pm

Mark... I am off to measure the drum shaft now... Have to box up to send to R.V Anderson, anyway. If it's too narrow at that end, yes... I'm need to have him add a new one, or get an undersized drven gear from the previous poster. I don't know what the proper diameter is, but it should measure similar to further up the shaft.
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Dan McEachern
Posts: 332
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Dan McEachern » Mon May 25, 2020 6:37 pm

The driven gear bore per the Ford drawing is 1.651"/1.652"


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 25, 2020 6:59 pm

Dan

it's great to know you make these U/S gears! That was news to me. I wonder how many "stealth" parts exist for the market-place?
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 1355
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by RajoRacer » Mon May 25, 2020 7:05 pm

That has to be one of the most chewed up brake drums I've seen and I've taken quite a number apart !!!


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Mon May 25, 2020 8:01 pm

The readings I get with my calipers are 1.650" ID on the driven gear, and 1.651 on the area of the brake shaft where the 2 keys are, with 1.652 in the 'unused' area if the shaft above where the opposing holes are, then back to 1.651 in the bushed area, down next to the drum.

Interestingly, the driven gear won't just slide back on. With some effort, I can 'wobble' it back on, maybe 3/16".... To go further, I would have to drive it on.

Should I ask for the drum back to keep as an example of a terribly bad drum? :-)
20200525_195329.jpg
20200525_194552.jpg
20200525_194619.jpg

20200525_194629.jpg
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Mon May 25, 2020 11:24 pm

If that gear was in my shop, it would recieve 9 separate measurements using telescoping gauges and an appropriately sized micrometer that had been double checked for "zero" against a 1" standard block (there are admittedly other ways to measure, including inside mics, but I find telescoping gauges combined with a good outside micrometer to be satisfactory for the accuracy needed). Those 9 measurements, mapped, would let you know what's really going on. You've already found a slip fit situation for some portion of the assembly which the dial calipers did not pick up. Though they appear to be built for it, they really are not the tool for this job.

Good quality dial calipers are my go-to tool in my shop but do not trust them to be accurate under .002" if it is an important measurement, and this one is. ID measurements can be particularly problematic and give bad surprises even if you're used to using them carefully and correctly.

As an aside, if you're used to the method, standard Starrett hand calipers can guide you to a remarkably close size "to size" on a lathe and save you from constantly double checking with measuring tools prior to going in for the final cut, but that's an entirely different subject.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Stephen_heatherly
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:03 pm
First Name: Stephen
Last Name: Heatherly
Location: St. Louis MO

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Tue May 26, 2020 1:09 am

More than likely both the driven gear and the brake drum shaft are shot because the gear would have been moving slightly on the end of the shaft. Good driven gears are easy to find and cheap. Find a better one and you'll be all set.

Stephen


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Tue May 26, 2020 6:14 am

Scott... I wish I had the skill set and tools to do proper measuring and comparison. I have sent my old drum and shaft to R.V. Anderson to mount one of his new break drums to my old shaft. If he makes the shafts as well... I will ask him to go ahead and install one of his, instead. Otherwise, one I get it back, I'll take the setup to a local machine shop, and have the shaft turned to match one of Dan's (I think I got his name right) undersized gears.

Thanks all for your input!!
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Scott_Conger
Posts: 2681
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:18 am
First Name: Scott
Last Name: Conger
Location: Clark, WY
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by Scott_Conger » Tue May 26, 2020 10:28 pm

Dennis

I reread my post and believe I came across harshly, when I did not mean to. Dial Calipers are in everyone's shop and are generally considered the final word by their users...I simply wanted to warn you to not put too much stock in what they were telling you for this job. General machine shops often work to +/- .005", while precision work is usually +/- .002. This is work that really needs to be understood to 1/2 thou (.0005) and an awful lot of folks don't realize that. Please accept my appologies if you were offended.
Scott Conger

Full Flow Float Valves - deliver fuel like Henry intended!


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Wed May 27, 2020 6:11 am

No problem, Scott... I wasn't offended at all. It is good to remember, that some aspects of the T are not best left to 'farmer hacks'. I appreciate knowing, that this is one of them... That proper tolerances need to be maintained. As it 'kinda starts to go on' now.. I would otherwise been inclined to get out the hammer and a block, and schmuck it back on, when the time comes.

If Dave's Restoration and Machine makes the shafts, then I'll just have him mount that... Otherwise, I'll have a machine shop clean minne up to match a slightly undernoted driven gear. I am, after all, as part of this rebuild, looking for sources of 'slop', that I can mitigate in the process.

Take care, and be safe!
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi


Topic author
dhosh
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:13 pm
First Name: Dennis
Last Name: Hoshield
Location: Petoskey, MI
MTFCA Number: 24305
Board Member Since: 2015

Re: Transmission play & misc transmission questions

Post by dhosh » Wed May 27, 2020 11:39 am

Dan McEchern... I sent you a PM. Thanks,

Dennis
'24 RPU
Petoskey, Mi

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic