MTFCA Forum

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Hello fellow Model T-ers,

Do you feel that MTFCA member #29, who will be 91 years old on June 4th, should be allowed to go along on the Golden Gate "T" Tour next week?

This question is being asked because, despite his excitement and his commitment to going, there are some in our club who are advising him that he should stay at home until this Covid19 Pandemic is eradicated. Lee, pictured here in his 15 Touring, does not agree with them and insists that we are now coming out of the crisis and he can abide by proper Corona Virus protocols. Obviously, the rest of those attending this Northern California tour are leaning his same way.

Which of these opposing councils is correct?
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While I respectfully disagree with Lee that "we're coming out of the crisis", if he's willing to accept the risk and everyone on tour abides by the safety protocols of this thing, then sure, why not? I mean, seriously... the numbers are still going up, and up, and up... likely 100K before the weekend is over.

My bigger concern is when people do as we always did on tours - hanging out together, working on cars together, sharing drinks at the pool, etc. - just how smart it is to be doing this thing. Don't call me a Debbie Downer, but I can wait a year for a tour if it means I'm protecting my family by not going out and mingling. Then again, I've lost a couple family members to this already, so I tend to take it a bit more seriously. If you haven't, then be grateful, and think how much you're willing to bet on that roulette table.

The choice is his. It is his life. He may pass from a heart attack a month later. That is a risk we all take in life. He is willing to social distance and wear a mask. He has lived a full life if he has made it to 91...............I understand your concern and applaud you for making it.

Why not , should age be a factor if the guy has all all of his abilities.

First off, I agree with Susanne.
We are nowhere near done with Covid, so it should still be a concern.
But, like everyone says, if they are careful, and practice social distancing, then it is up to him. He has to decide how much risk he wants to face. So let him decide.
One other observation, and I don't know if it is true or not. Just something I suspect.
I took care of my elderly mother for 17 years. During that entire time, she got a cold, exactly ONE TIME. I got the flu every year, got colds every time I was around someone who was coughing, etc. She never got the flu, and never picked up anything from me.
She had a constitution like a mule!
I have often wondered how this could be, and it finally dawned on me. She was born in 1921, which was too late for the 1918 Flu Pandemic.
BUT, she was nursed on her mother's milk, and her mother DID survive the 1918 Flu Pandemic. And that was equivalent or worse than what we are going through now. About 9 million died in the war, but about 30 million died the following year with the flu.
So I wonder if that generation picked up anti-bodies that made them more resistant to viral infection.
I have seen many news stories of very elderly people, some of them over 100, who have had Covid 19, and recovered. But it seems to do a real number (4 weeks sedated and on a ventilator, IF they do survive) on people who are just middle aged. (Which is what I am.) Has anyone else noticed this, or am I the only one?
I am pretty sure I would be screwed if I picked up Covid 19, so I am NOT going back to normal, and am still taking precautions. If things stay bad, I will wait up to a year if I have to, before I do group activities again. It depends on what happens with the second wave of infections, and the possibility of a vaccine, which may be coming up soon.
The machinist group I am a member of, has suspended all meetings until this Covid situation is resolved, no matter how long. We can still communicate and show pics by e-mail. We have too many older guys to risk decimating the group if someone introduced the virus into it.
I guess it is a matter for personal reflection and personal decision, to select one way or the other.

If I was 91 and excited and capable of attending a large tour, I sure would not be afraid of expiring before my due date. That date has long since passed. This fellow did not get there by being reckless. It is his choice and decision, no one else's.

Waiting to tour AFTER this virus has been beaten will surely mean he never tours again.

The statement

"should be ALLOWED to go"

is particularly bothersome to me, frankly. Unless he has shown to be of diminished capacity behind the wheel, it is no one's business to allow or not allow someone to participate.

GO FOR IT, LEE!

This may come out awkward, but at this point, the only one who has a say in the matter is the partcipant. Once an event announced, who gets to attend should be on a first come basis. It is no longer your decision.

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The National Parks Service has announced that group river rafting will now be allowed again starting June 14th. These trips are two rafts with 12 adventurers each plus guide and crew floating, dining, and hiking together for 6 full days from Lake Powell to Lake Mead. It appears that the federal government and these sophisticated river outfitters think the worst is behind us.
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At 91 years old and still able to drive his T and Looking Forward to having fun,sheesh, keep your distance and let the man enjoy his small number of days! We don't have a warrenty.We can go out at any time.

Steven,

I don’t know you or the MTFCA Member # 29.

So - since you posted this thread ...

I agree with Scott Conger 101%

Is member # 29 legally competent to manage his own affairs or does someone else have Power Of Attorney ?

If no one has Power Of Attorney then the question posed “ Should He Be Allowed ? “ is ( in my opinion ) not relevant to what member # 29 decides to do.

I hope you all enjoy the tour


FJ

NorthSouth wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 6:20 pm

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The National Parks Service has announced that group river rafting will now be allowed again starting June 14th. These trips are two rafts with 12 adventurers each plus guide and crew floating, dining, and hiking together for 6 full days from Lake Powell to Lake Mead. It appears that the federal government and these sophisticated river outfitters think the worst is behind us.
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When we're surpassing 100K dead and growing, is that behind us? Sorry... but no. If you want to go out and gather - go ahead! It's your right. Me? We'll keep our family separate and safe. Because that's OUR right - to keep our friends and family SAFE regardless of what political action is being taken.

And with that, I'll silence my comments, as I WON'T go take the bait to get into a political discussion here... sorry.

Medical Doctor here. CDC statistics lately are saying Corona death rate is low. Answer is yes if #29:

. Has capacity to manage his affairs and his mental faculties are intact.

. Has no other chronic illnesses such as Hypertension, Diabetes, Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disorder (COPD) is otherwise healthy.

. Will be in highly anti-microbial conditions: temperatures at or over 80 degrees F, sunny, well-ventilated. Those conditions are very low-transmission circumstances, highly toxic to the virus.

Otherwise, mask in the indoors while around others may be good. Outdoors in highly anti-microbial conditions probably not necessary.

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In answer to a few of your questions, MTFCA Member #29 is Lee Chase and he has been a constant presence in our hobby since the early 50s. He was a founding member of the Model T Ford Club of Southern California, a group involved in the creation of our national club. Lee is of sound mind and, although he now needs me to chauffeur his '15 Touring, he is still obsessed with our hobby, loves to tour and to talk endlessly about anything Model T. Some of you may remember him as that guy behind all those Europe, Australia, Baja, and Alaska tours shipping Ts there in containers. He lives, as always, in Los Angeles with his wife of 65 years and is very much looking forward to going on this Northern California tour next week.
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Wayne J said it best ! Its his choice.

Also: the drive itself, stroke, heart attack, and much more is almost certainly statistically more likely than dying of Corona. Have fun!

Well let me toss this in for consideration.
Most tours with clubs are under the insurance of MTFCA or MTFCI.
IF a problem happens, is the insurance company going to balk on taking care of things?
I know at least 1 tractor show I go to canceled because his insurance company would not cover the event due to the virus.

I don't know why the insurance company would not cover the event. Normally, all they are covering is accidents or problems on the tour. They don't care if you get sick or not. It's not their problem. If someone goes on the tour, and has a heart attack, that is not an action against the insurance company. I've been on tours where people dropped dead during the tour, (not while driving - no accident or incident) and I don't think the tour liability insurance had any responsibility. The general attitude on the tour was "Well, he went out doing something he loved, so he won!"
Even if he had had the heart attack, lost control, and hit a car or a person, it would still have been on HIS insurance, not the liability insurance for the tour.
Any people here who have dealt with such situations on tours? Anyone who has had a liability claim filed against the even liability insurer? What were the circumstances, and what happened with the liability insurance?

Any man has the right to choose his destiny. We or BIG BROTHER do not.

Another, it's his risk, his choice.

If you feel so strong about risking transmission, then YOU can stay home.

Age discrimination - yes it is. Why not just send him off to a New York nursing home, they will take good care of him.

I find this whole thread totally invasive and inappropriate. It is none of anyone's business except for #29 and his family. How would any of us like to have a family member scrutinized like this on a public forum?

tom_strickling wrote: ↑

Tue May 26, 2020 8:19 am

I find this whole thread totally invasive and inappropriate. It is none of anyone's business except for #29 and his family. How would any of us like to have a family member scrutinized like this on a public forum?

Amen
Around here we would welcome him with open arms and take whatever precautions to keep everyone safe. Have fun on the tour!

If Lee wants to go, and Model T's are obviously a big part of his life, then he should go. It's really no one else's business. The rest of the folks on the tour who are worried about him should do all they can to help keep him safe.

Number 29----Lee Chase ( Steves Dad...) is a long time friend and is famous for leading many international Ford tours since the late 1990`s. I traveled with Lee on most of these tours and always found him adventurous, capable and self-sufficient. He is one of the founders of the Model A Touring Club which is now part of the MAFCA.
If Lee is UP for going on THIS tour, he should certainly GO!! (especially since Steve is there with him).
I wish I could join him on THIS tour but our OHIO "lockdown" isn't quite over, yet.....
Hope everyone has a terrific tour, including this OLD PRO!!! Paul

tom_strickling wrote: ↑

Tue May 26, 2020 8:19 am

I find this whole thread totally invasive and inappropriate. It is none of anyone's business except for #29 and his family. How would any of us like to have a family member scrutinized like this on a public forum?

"I have been reading your words and am touched by your overwhelming support. Please know that no one coming on this tour has made me feel unwelcome. It's quite the opposite. We have an elite group. It has been club members who are not attending that are insisting I remain at home until this Covid19 mess is eradicated. I'm sure that they mean well but it is putting undue pressure on my son and on his upcoming Golden Gate Tour. Unless something catastrophic happens in the next 5 days I AM GOING with my son (and with my caretaker too) on this tour and I'm sure it will be a fun 6 days."
-Lee

If Lee wants to go and is able to keep social distancing, let him go. One could get the virus while staying home if he comes in contact with a carrier. Might as well enjoy himself. Just be careful.
Norm

Thank you Lee. Have a great time.

I think it's arrogant to even consider the question of, " Should [he} be allowed". If he's a member in good standing it's his choice, not yours. I doubt your club by-laws even permit such an arbitrary action as not allowing him to go.

Mind your own business.

Steve and Lee Chase. Here is raising a glass to you and your group having a great tour. Sunshine every day and just enough fog in the morning to know you are in California. Enjoy yourselves. Enjoy your company. Have a neat ride across the Golden Gate. We are all here with you.

I don't see how that's anyone's business except his.

Mr Chase,you go and have some fun.Be safe.
I hope I am still able to go on a tour at your age.

I am not going on this tour, as it is unrealistic for me to go as I am in Michigan.
I think the people raising the question may have their understanding of this COVID thing mixed up. He's not going to pass COVID on to YOU, any more than anyone else on the tour might. YOU have a much higher chance of giving it to HIM. So, do YOUR due diligence.

It is Mr 29's decision, along with his family, etc. No one else's. If he was a known carrier, or some such thing, well, that would be a different case. He will be taking his chances along with everyone else.

Everyone ELSE must do the same social distancing and take the same precautions that he is indicating they will be doing. Everything will be fine.

I'm an avid social distancing person, wear the mask thing, wash and sanitize, etc.... but come on folks, don't overkill this thing.

Keith B hit the nail on the head. A couple of others are in the same zone.

It is Lee's RIGHT to choose to go or NOT go. NO ONE ELSE'S. When does a club have a right to override the Constitution of the United States? If a person does not feel safe with Lee on the tour, then let that person stay at home. It is each person's rights we're talking about.

How would the person( NOT wanting Lee to go on tour) feel if someone said they couldn't go on tour because of their hair color since there is a great likelihood of death for persons with that hair color. NOW, lets factor in age. Does the club have published age limitations for tour participants i.e. oldest and youngest? I think not as that would be open age discrimination.

I understand the concern for ANY person going on a tour with the coronavirus problem. EACH one of the people on tour should take care of all the others on that tour. It's one of the reasons we all are in this club. We each take care of anyone when the call arises. How many people has Lee assisted? Now, it's time we assist him if or when he needs it.

I sincerely hope everyone on the tour gets total enjoyment. It may be your last. Make all you can out of life today and tomorrow IF/WHEN it comes.

How does that saying go? Is it better to reach the end of the road in a pristine body having never taken the risk? OR Is it better to come sliding in sideways, throwing gravel, worn out, and shouting "Man what a ride"?

Good Luck Lee. May you all be Blessed with health and happiness.

He's most likely no more vulnerable to contracting the virus than anybody else. If it's too unsafe for him, it's too unsafe for others as well. Only difference with #29 is that it would most likely be a fatal case, but then 20 year olds die from this too, so....

He's probably more at risk of dying simply by virtue of being 91 years old. Either way, as long as HE doesn't make anyone ill, it's his life, his choice I guess.

Judgeing from the effects of this lock down on my soon to be 86 year old dad, Depression from being stuck at home and not being able to socialize has damaging affects as well..
Depression is unhealthy.

The irony of Covid risk, as opposed to simply taking a Model T out in traffic is amusing.
3rd party concerns, curtailing a man's freedom in a free country, with Memorial Day just
past, .... really ? We might assume such concern is well-founded in worry for Mr. Chase,
but sheesh ! ... the man is a seasoned adult, well versed in adulting. I think he can make
his own decisions.

When you’re in your 40’s, 50’s, or 60’s, you can easily claim you can wait til next year -

Mr Lee #29 should be the Grand Marshall of the tour - and leading it - celebrated by all !

Thank you for your contributions to the addiction.

Have fun sir !

( the rest of you can wait til next year )

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FWD: From Model T Lee

Hello all my friends,

"I have been reading your words and am touched by your overwhelming support. There only appears to be two of you who are advising me to stay at home.  As we all know, there are always a couple of those.
 
Please know that no one actually coming on this tour has made me feel unwelcome. It's quite the opposite. We have an elite group here. It has been MTFCA members who are NOT attending this tour that are campaigning for me to stay put until this Covid19 mess is eradicated. They claim that we "are not taking the Pandemic seriously". I'm sure that they mean well but their insistence to cancel is putting undue pressure on my son and on this upcoming Golden Gate Tour.
 
In any case, I thank you all for your positive comments and encouragement.  And, rest assured that unless something catastrophic happens to me in the next 4 days I AM GOING on this beautiful tour with my son (and with my caretaker Mark too) and I'm certain it will be a fun 6 days." 

For those of you not fortunate enough to be coming with us I look forward to seeing you down the road.

Model T Lee

PS: Here I am in 1960 with my 1909 Touring and dingy The Titanic
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Since you’re riding shotgun, send lots of pictures.

Have fun !

Looking spiffy there! Have fun Model T Lee! I wanna be you when I grow up!

You go! Literally and figuratively. Enjoy.

In case you haven’t noticed, I don’t spend a lot of time on this site anymore.
The folks were very helpful and fun to talk with but that has changed.
I stopped because I got tired of the busybodies complaining about things that don’t affect them.
I get the idea that they are just frustrated old men with little else to do except complain.
If #29 wants to go on the tour he should.. it is his body.
It is bad enough that our rights are being eroded —-
I’ll be quiet I’ve said too much already.

NorthSouth wrote: ↑

Mon May 25, 2020 2:27 pm

Do you feel that MTFCA member #29, who will be 91 years old on June 4th, should be allowed to go along on the Golden Gate "T" Tour next week? ....

Am I missing something, how old are the rest of those going in the tour? The caution is for people 65 and older!
Having said that... the statistics related to age are somewhat misleading. It would have been better to associate the number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths to people with / without underlying conditions such as diabetes, serious heart conditions, obesity, stress, liver or kidney disease etc. So as we age we are more likely to acquire one or more of these conditions. The number of "new" cases is also misleading as an indicator of the virus spread. Initially the case count was mostly emergency room system checks result in home quarantines or hospitalizations, now it is the result of testing people with or without symptoms. The "new" cases are actually a count of pole that got the previous week. And for the people that tested negative doesn't mean that the can't get it in the next hour. Temperature taking does not prove a person is virus free; just if they have a symptom or not.
So lets assume everyone going on the tour has been tested and virus free just before the start. Suggest that you all go and set some rules, not just social distancing but wearing masks, have hand sanitizer and using it, and all the CDC recommendations. AND since you have come in contact with it others, you should quarantine yourselves upon your return home. The concern shouldn't be about a single person but the entire group and their respective families. Stay safe. Almost fogot... better take your own TP

I don't feel that this thread even belongs here. This is his and his family's business. If there is an event going on and he is of sound mind and is physically capable of doing it, then he has every right to go.

Stephen

This thread was started by Lee's son who has planned this tour. I think it was posted to keep attention to the proposed tour. We are going to have a short tour, about 100 miles round trip tomorrow. almost everyone going is over 65 including myself and my wife. We will keep social distancing and wear masks when going to public places. Lunch will be on running boards or in the cars which will be parked at least 6' apart. The trouble truck driver will have hand sanitizer along. I, personally don't think it is any more unsafe than going to a grocery store. If anyone in the family goes out at all whether staying at home or touring, they run a risk, but no one will get out of this world alive, and most of us have actually been blessed, living longer than average. Might as well have some fun during the remainder of our days.
Norm

Just because no one suggested it. As long as his mom says it's okay I'd let him go.

He's 91. He should be able to do what ever he wants.

tdump wrote: ↑

Tue May 26, 2020 9:55 pm

Judgeing from the effects of this lock down on my soon to be 86 year old dad, Depression from being stuck at home and not being able to socialize has damaging affects as well..
Depression is unhealthy.

Amen to that.

My youngest (14 years old) is in such a rough mental state from the lockdown that my wife and I decided it was best for her to quit her job so she could keep an eye on him until things return to normal.

I am member 823 and I will be 88 on June 21. It is my choice to lead as an active life as I can. I go to work at my store every day and stop by the building on Sunday. I drive my own modern car and will have one of my old cars out soon. I used my chainsaw yesterday cuting up a tree. I do all the computer work for our business. Yes, I am a bit bent over because of my back. The VA gives me a bit each month since it is the result of a service injury. (I was in ther army 1950-53). It is my choice to be active. I am going through my storage areas and finding items I am selling in our classified sectionn. Yes, I am taking a risk each day, but everyone does that in someway.

Take care, stay healthy, and enjoy your Fords.

Darel

If he is able to drive well he can go. People can’t stay ‘inside’ forever. For more than a few people the cure is worse than the disease. Hype by some folks has made things worse than it needs to be.
People are dying everyday from other things besides the virus. No kidding they really are. But those things don’t make the headlines other than the obituaries in the newspaper and to the affected families who lose someone.