MTFCA Forum

I would like to put a better brake system on my 23 coupe. I am undivided what to use . Have any of you t guys used the hydraulic brake system, what do you think? I know there are a lot of you t guys have the Rocky Mountain brakes . Is that the better way to go?

It takes awhile to get past looking at the big discs inside the rear wheels. After that, it’s comforting to push the pedal and lock up the rear wheels with little or no effort. I went with Birdhaven, but the brakes sold by Kevin Nuebert (sp) look pretty good.

Rocky Mountain. Period correct. ...I only have Henry’s brakes on all my T s so I’ve been enjoying driving them like Model T s for 53 years.

Rocky’s are great until you get caught in the rain, then LOOK Out!! Wet external band brakes are USELESS until they dry out. I’ve had a couple of moments of absolute TERROR!

Rocky Mountain brakes work great going forwards if they are dry. Backing up or wet, well go slow. I never park with the back downhill as it will occasionally creep. Also, a rear axle leak and the RM brakes will not work.
After 10 or so years a band broke. Per RM brakes, it wasn't set up correctly. Amazingly I followed all set up directions. A couple years later the other band broke. I set up my system such that if the RM brakes failed, the transmission brake would be usable. Glad I did that. I might consider switching to disc brakes if they made a manually operated disc assembly. However, I do not like the disk sticking out in sight. I've had RM brakes installed for over 20 years. Understand their limitations and they work.

Well as some say "It's your car do what you want."

I am puzzled why any one would want to own an early vehicle and make modern improvements - I can see period up grades, but to add options that were not options at the time the vehicle was manufactured seem to defeat the reason in having a vintage vehicle. Now excuse me whilst I convert my Rolex from mechanical to a quartz movement.

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You made me laugh George. That's pretty funny.
I like the idea of increased confidence in breaking. This makes modern hydraulic disks appealing. What would this cost? ...And, what pitfalls if any, other than aesthetic, would there be?
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Depends entirely on what you would rather have and where you drive the car. Remember this: You can lock up the rear wheels with the transmission brake, the parking brake, or the reverse pedal. You can also lock up the rear wheels with Rocky Mountain Brakes or with hydraulic brakes. Rocky's can get wet or oily, Hydraulics can have a leak. Two advantages of Hydraulic are equalization and they work both forward and backward. Rocky Mountain brakes can be equalized with some work on adjustments. And if properly installed the transmission brake will work for preventing rolling backward on a hill and the parking brake will hold both forward and backward. So take your choice. Neither brake will stop the front wheels and the narrow tire tread with high pressure tires bive limited traction, so best thing to do is keep your distance from those in front of you and keep your eyes open for pedestrians or animals darting in front of you and be prepared to swerve if necessary to avoid an accident.
I have Rocky's on all three of my cars and they work fine for me, but I drive in California where it rarely rains and only once in a while get caught in the rain.
Norm

Have been using Rocky Mtn on the '27 for 14 years and they are still stopping strong. As for roll back on steep hill, mine are set to come on first movement of the brake pedal, and then the trans brake comes on, elimination of rolling. Advantage of the external contacting is it works wonderful in forward rolling where you need it. Plus the equalizer set-up, when you pull back on the emergency brake/clutch lever, that too engages the Rocky Mtn external , so you really get great parking brakes, and extra safety in panic situations.

Water or rain does reduce brake power, so use caution, just as we did in the old days of drum brakes. In light rain or wet roads, can't really tell a difference.

Pump the pedal to heat and dry the Rocky Mtn lining, it won't hold water, you just need to get the moisture away from the interface.

Ran down a very steep hill in NC in a horrible rain storm once, and yes when you stomp on the brake pedal, to check your speed in down hill free wheeling, the brakes felt weaker, but more constant stabbing on the pedal increased the power. Was more worried about the tires, they weren't new and had tread wear, slipping tires were my main concern on that down hill.

Don't have working knowledge of disc brakes, and haven't ever changed a pad or bled a line. All that stuff added to the T seems a challenge for me to install, plumb, and maintain. The Rocky Mtn are simple mechanical, like the Model A I had in high school, it had 4 wheel internal mechanical and stopped good. But my T with rear wheel external mechanical does the job too, easy to keep safe.

I put big drum(1926/27 rear end) Rocky's on my 21. Maybe it's the lining on them but they seem to work ok in reverse backing down the slope at the end of my drive way. This is a set of the older reproductions so don't know what type of lining was used. I have them as brakes only, not set up as parking brakes. If my car still had the small drum rear end, I might still do the same Re not using them as parking brakes using the equalizer sold today. I made my own equalizer that just hangs off the cross shaft and works independent of it. I also put 21" wheels and tires on to get larger foot print on the ground. I know where I drive and how I drive, most of the time and have to deal with city traffic/speeds/hills, even the country side were we do most of our tours, lots of hills and traffic (unless I lead a tour down south around Salem were it's a lot more flat and less traffic ). I want brakes that will bring the car to a stop without sliding, sliding is not stopping! Ether brakes should work as long as you remember that you are dealing with a very small tire foot print with the 30" tires that does not take a lot of heavy footed braking to put the car into a slide. Can't help with how well the disk brakes work, don't know anyone that has them. Maybe later, helping build a speedster that might get them. As T owners, I would venture to say, cars of the same era (up to say 1927), we drive a lot more miles with our cars then all the other makes combined, so maybe have to deal with more modern driving situations then other brands so want better brakes.

I live in a fairly congested area where people drive very aggressively, and nobody understands the limitations of 1915 braking technology. I am also a relatively new Model T driver. I choose Birdhaven / Texas T disk brakes and I am happy with them. Generally, folks are too upset to see 26 wire wheels on my 15 T to even comment on the brakes.

Generally, folks are too upset to see 26 wire wheels on my 15 T to even comment on the brakes.

Wayne, I think that's one of the funniest things I've read in a long time.

Just an observation, it seems nobody objects too strenuously about modifications folks make to make their T go faster (high compression heads, pistons, cams, etc.) but everyone is a purist if you want to stop faster.

Excellent point, one thing I will tell you is this i do have discs on my 1919 and it will stop wet or otherwise i did have rocky mountain brakes and find them to be mostly useless, that said i will tell you this you have to watch the people behind you because you can stop they can't as well as the guy with discs. I do not tell anyone what they should or should not do to their car i do not own it.

I installed the Sure-Stop hydraulic disc brakes from Texas T Parts (other distributors sell them as well) last summer and I couldn't be happier.

My 23ish Touring has a Ruckstell but only had the transmission brake so I had to do something. The price for the Rocky Mtn Brakes and the hydraulic brakes were comparable.

I live in Joliet, Illinois which has a number of drawbridges and associated hills, and often a LOT of traffic. Those things made me choose the hydraulic brakes; I sometimes have to stop on a pretty steep incline and I didn't want the worry of not being able to stop on a back roll

I have wire wheels so the discs are slightly less noticeable than with wood wheels. In fact have to point out the disc brakes every time a non-T person has admired the car. They just don't seem to notice.

I understand the inclination to maintain the car as period correct as possible, I just don't see the point of settling for a less reliable braking system on anything other than a brass era trailer queen or the like. I'm not taking that unnecessary risk to keep my $7,500 23 Touring period correct.

Damn thing already has a distributor anyhow.

Paddy i feel the same way my car is a fordor and a driver and it is gonna get them too.

The only thing "wrong" with disc brakes is that they don't look appropriate for a Model T. But I can tell you from my experience that once you drive a T with them, you won't want anything else. They are the best brakes available, so they ARE appropriate if your T will be driven in traffic.

Got hydraulic on my 4dr works great wouldn't leave home without them.

I've been toying with an idea... 4 weel hydraulic drum brakes with modern linings (whoch would be hidden inside the drums)... an argument can even be made that it wouls be era-correct (nee Lockheed) for a later T as an accessory - other cars had this set-up. Whie the front drum would look wrong on the front... i wouldn't look quite as wrong looking as nice, shiny stainless steel discs...

Saying that - Brakes are the one known proven weak links on a T, so I won't condemn anyone's efforts to make their car safer...

Responding to Steve's post. I have AC brakes with Rich Baughman linkage on my 25 Touring and am very pleased with them. They hold equally well in reverse and I notice only minimal decrease in braking when wet. They are a good choice if you have small drum setup and do not wish to add the larger drum required for Rocky's. I have Rocky's on my 13 touring and they require less foot pressure than the AC but do not hold as well in reverse.
My AC brakes are set up with the internal shoes still in place and activated by the brake lever. They are adjusted for the AC to engage first followed by the transmission brake if you push harder. I can lock up the rear wheels easily when adjusted correctly.
Bill

The question of disk brakes has come up again. I am bringing this thread to the top as the comments here might be helpful to the most recent poster of this topic.

I have Rocky Mt Brakes on all three. One of them has an older set which is cast with AC but is exactly the same as the currently manufactured Rocky Mountain brakes. The older AC had an anchor in the center which allowed the brake to lock up in either direction.
I have friends who use the Disk brakes and like them very much. For breaking they will be very good, however, I don't like the appearance, and for the speeds we usually drive Model T's and since they are rear brakes only either type work fine. I live in the mountains so I need the brakes for downhill driving and when I go uphill, unless I should roll backward, they also work fine.
The important part of the adjustment is to adjust the parking brake to apply first and then pull the lever back one more notch the Rocky Brakes lock. That will take care of rolling backward either when parked, or if you need to brake going backward. The transmission brake should always be left in place and is adjusted about one inch above the floorboard, where the Rocky Mountain brake comes on before the transmission brake. Then if you push very hard you have both brakes working together and it will also hold in reverse.
Norm

Throughout this topic, it has been assumed that hydraulic brakes means Disc brakes. The drum brakes on most cars from the early thirties were hydraulic. Hydraulic drum brakes are far less obtrusive than the oversized disc brakes offered these days. They were available some years back, but I understand a legal case led to the manufacturer ceasing production. With repeated overuse, they will fade, as they did in the past, but they would make a neat, unobtrusive package on a model T.

Allan from down under.

I own two T's. My BEST is a 1926 roadster with disc brakes (the beauty). My FAVORITE is a 1915 touring with rocky mountain brakes (the beast). I drive both of my tee's a lot around town. The best system is the disc. The best looking system are the rockies. I always drive both as if they have no brakes. I call them P&P brakes (Push & Pray) You have to remember that even with the brake upgrades mentioned , you still have no front brakes and very little contact with the road because of the skinny tires. The prices for disc or rockies are about the same but neither one is cheap by any means. If I didn't drive my T's, I wouldn't own my T's. bobt

I don’t remember the topic subject so I can’t really search it but years back someone spoke of a rear wheel hydraulic drum set with a picture or two. Believe the drums & backing plates were from a foreign car. You would never notice them at all. If I were to do this job that’s the first system I’d try to find out about.

Charlie, I'm with you on hydraulic drum brakes on the rear. If my memory serves me well, the ones I remember were Technicore brakes. I do not know of the reason for the legal case, and demise of the product.
There is one car in our club which has hydraulic drum brakes on the front wheels. These came from a late seventies rear wheel drive Toyota Camry. Unless you know T's, they go largely un-noticed.

Allan from down under.

Technicore it was. I found a post from Feb 2 on the 2005 forum. The reading is interesting. There is no mention of any legal case, so I may have that wrong.

Allan from down under.

Yes Allan

Those were Technicore small drum brakes, friend with a fine 1911 has these on the rear housing, no changes to the axle or wheel, just a tiny steel line is seen, he says they are great for stopping! Sadly, no longer produced, developer abandoned I think due to low sales, price was hefty for back in the '70's.

You want a baler with shiny paint or one that is tying bales when your hay is down and it's about to rain? Both is nice but given a choice I'll take the one that is tying 5 or 6 bales a minute without a problem over the one with shiny paint that won't tie.

That's my take on the brakes. A set is going on my 27 coupe when I get the Ruckstell rebuilt and ready to go under it.

I had a set of Rocky Mountains on a speedster. Ran them on one run. Took them off and sold them for about $350 less than I paid for them.

I want to stop when I need to stop. Rain, mud, snow, winter, summer, forward, backward, down a Montana mountain or running down a gravel road or stopped by somebody in front of me not being able to climb the hill.

I'm putting pennies in a jar for a set of Sure Stop disks. Anybody doesn't like how they look on my coupe with its original paint and "Patina."

Not my problem.

I have the earlier style Rocky's with cast iron drums on my 13 touring for over 20 yrs. and like them.....except when they get wet. When wet , I ride the brakes early to help dry them out when going down hill or approaching a stop sign. I have the internal brake band adjusted loose but can lock up the wheels by "stomping" on the peddle. I do not like driving in the rain. The earlier style Rocky's stop better in reverse than the later style. I can lock up the rear wheels when dry but must push very hard on the brake peddle. Just don't like the looks of disk Hydraulic brake's on Model T's.

Having only the two rear wheels to stop you.....a Boat Anchor may be a better investment. Smile!