MTFCA Forum

First off I'm new to Model Ts. Totally ignorant. I have the remains of a roadster body that I was told is a 23. The firewall is missing and in trying to do some research I find two width firewalls. One 23 and three eights wide and one 28 wide. When I measure across the body opening I get 27 inches. How does this work? Thanks.

One way to tell the '23-'25 open car body only without a firewall is to measure the cowl height from the upper windshield ledge to the lower edge where the firewall mounts. The high radiator body cowls are much shorter than earlier low radiator cowls, i.e. the low radiator cowl is much steeper drop. Open Improved Cars ('26-'27) have very different cowls with gas filler door and gas tank in cowl.

High radiator are '24-'25 model year, with that 'new bodied' 1924 model year (in late summer 1923).

Low radiator are '23 model year, for the first slant windshield that came out for the 'new bodied' 1923 model year (in Fall 1922).

If the body you have is missing the firewall, and any significant amount of wood structure, the sheet metal usually sort of "spreads" without some support. That could likely explain the in-between width.

Darvin,

Welcome to the forum!

If the body is all the same sheet metal that came from the factory it is easy. If like many bodies the wood is gone and you have sheet metal from various year ranges it is more difficult to figure out.

During the 1923 Calendar year Ford produced a 1923 model year car that had a "low cowl." That body with variations was produced from 1915-1923. And during the later part of 1923 Ford introduced the "High Cowl" cars that were continued into the 1925 model year again with some changes to the body.

The cowl of the bodies look generally like the ones shown below (some small differences depending one which of the 5 or so body makers produced the 1915-1923 body and also when either of the boides were produced). But the key thing is the 1915-1923 has a large flat panel at the front of the cowl while the 1924-25 style has a much smaller lip that runs only an inch or so at the front of the cowl as shown below:

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cutoff

There should be some overlap.

Jeff,

You are correct that there would have been some overlap when both the low cowl and the high cowl styles were being produced at the same time. Part of that would have to do with when the different assembly plants used up all the older bodies. Part of that would have to do with did they introduce the high cowl for both the roadster and touring at the same time? I don't know the answer to that one. For the slant windshield and one man tops introduced for the 1923 model year in late 1922, Bruce McCalley on page 308 of his book "Model T Ford" states: The "1923" Touring car style was introduced in Sep 1922, with a one-man top and sloping windshield, but otherwise the body was the same as the 1922. The Runabout followed about Nov with a new body and turtle deck as well."

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off

Was there also an overlap between wood and low steel firewalls? if the brackets on the frame indicate that the firewall was a wooden one, that would indicate it had to be a low radiator car would it not?

Allan from down under.

Thanks for the replies. Appreciate it.

Allan,

Summary -- Yes, to both of your questions -- "IF" the chassis, brackets, and body were all original to the same car -- a 1917-1923 wooden dash board bracket would indicate a low cowl car.

Additional details:

Yes, there would have been overlap when both the steel and wood firewalls were used on the low cowl cars [only the steel ones were used on the high cowl USA cars]. Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#dash where Bruce has the following on the firewalls/dash:

1923
Steel, used with low hood for short time beginning about February 1923. Both the wood and the steel were used concurrently for a time. On April 7, 1923, a factory letter said that all production was then with the steel firewall.

1923-1925
Steel, larger for higher hood.

Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc23.htm has:

FEB 15, 1923 Acc. 572, Box 21, Ford Archives
Assembly and changes letter to the branches states that T-8761B dash (firewall) has been changed from wood to steel. Both types will be coming through in production for about sixty days.


APR 7, 1923 Acc. 78, Box 47-49, Ford Archives
Letter indicates that the steel firewall was now standard. This was the "low" steel firewall.

Allan you also commented: " if the brackets on the frame indicate that the firewall was a wooden one, that would indicate it had to be a low radiator car would it not?" And the answer would be yes, "IF" the brackets, frame, and body were all original to the car. I.e. not a piece from this one and another piece from a different car etc.

However, if the frame had the "metal firewall" brackets -- that would NOT necessarily mean it was a high cowl chassis. Why? Because the metal firewall brackets were used in the production of the 1923 low cowl cars that came from the factory with the metal dash. And that same bracket was continued into the high cowl production through 1925. (And with slight changes and swapping which side they went on -- they were then used on the 1926-27 improved chassis/firewall attachment.) Please see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/59 ... 1456565564 for a discussion with great photos of the how Ford USA used spacers on the wooden firewall brackets to install the metal firewalls during the initial transition from wood to metal firewalls.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off