VR or cutout

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Bernd
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VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:04 am

Hi dear members,
a couple of months ago I repaired a fallen off wire in the T's generator. I figured that maybe the generator had become too hot and the solder became soft. Since then I've had no problems and the ammeter stays at 10 to 12 amps with the lights off. Under 30 mph with lights on, the ammeter shows a slight discharge. I thought since I have still enough juice for the starter the next morning the setting of the third brush is about right. The ahooga horn instead sounds a little weak, always! That was different when the car came to me. I have since replaced the battery with an agm optima yellow top. It is a 6V system although with weak magnets. She does run on mag but sorta rough so the switch stays on "bat".
It might be a good idea to swap the cutout for a voltage regulator, but how can I tell the difference from the outside? Perhaps this has already been done sometime. Do I have to open it so I can tell what sits on the generator?
Any ideas?
With greetings from northern Germany,
Bernd


Gonenorth
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Gonenorth » Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:48 am

The biggest problem may be the availability of voltage regulators for the Model T generator. To my knowledge, they have been back ordered for some time and no real delivery date has been floated out there to date. In the mean time, 10-12 amps is set way too high for the generator output using a cutout. I would go on the conservative side of setting it to 4-5 amps and maybe less. If you do find a John Regan VR out there for sale, its not advisable to take it apart. If you can't find one, your only option may be get in line with the rest of use who ordered one.

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DanTreace
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by DanTreace » Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:35 am

To tell if you have a VR, remove from generator, and look at the underside.



The VR will have that tell-tale 'arrow point' notch in the underside, that is a purpose placed feature not found on any type of cut-out.

369601.jpg

And, unless you have measured the output of your magneto to know it is weak at road speed, you may just need the coils adjusted and tested properly on a HCCT, or StroboSpark, or ECCT unit that match the coils to simulate real magneto current that the coil must be set for.

And for your horn, check that the wire from the horn button is placed on the far end terminal of the terminal block, to the yellow-black wire from the generator. Sometimes it gets placed on the yellow battery wire, but best juice comes from the generator. And be sure the horn has good ground. Then it is the horn, maybe a turn or so on the adj. for the motor horn, or it may just have poor windings and be in sad sound shape :?
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by TRDxB2 » Thu Jun 11, 2020 12:14 pm

DanTreace wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:35 am
To tell if you have a VR, remove from generator, and look at the underside.
The VR will have that tell-tale 'arrow point' notch in the underside, that is a purpose placed feature not found on any type of cut-out.
Unfortunately that is not 100% true. The first photo is a cut-out that I was in the process of modifying for a diode. It has the notch punched through for connection to the solenoid. The second photo is from Lang's for the underside of a 5055 Fun Projects Cut-Out. Third photo id's what the screws, rivets, notch are for. "electronics" may be a solenoid, diode or VR board. Somewhere in the MTFCA discussions there were pictures of the undersides of the Fun Projects cut-out and VR's
By John F. Regan on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 04:14 pm: "All of our voltage regulators are easily discernible as to 6,8, or 12V as follows: On the underside of the base the 8V units are stamped with a letter "A" while 12V units are stamped with a letter "B". No stamp at all and it is then a 6V unit. Positive ground Voltage Regulators have a steel washer in place of one of the center insulating washers. As pointed out - a rivet in one of the center locations designates that it is a cutout. Hope this helps."
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Bernd
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Thu Jun 11, 2020 5:46 pm

Kevin, Dan and Frank, thank you!
Tomorrow I will take a look under the cutout/vr. I will also check the wiring on the horn. As for the third brush setting, I was afraid of draining the battery while driving with the lights on for about 35 miles which is the distance to my work. So I thought the battery might need the 10 amps in the meantime with the lights off. The T has regular bulbs with 2 additional rear lights, which is why I searched for led headlights with less appetite for watts.
Thanks again,
Bernd


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Bernd
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Mon Jun 15, 2020 3:49 pm

20200614_202544.jpg
20200614_202932.jpg
Well, I finally took off that little drum that sits on the generator. I turned it around and found out that it is probably a cut out and not a voltage regulator. I took some pics and would like you to confirm this.
Thank you,
Bernd

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Re: VR or cutout

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Jun 15, 2020 4:45 pm

It does not look like the Fun Project's VR. The best way to tell is to remove the cup from the base. Normally just two spot welds hold it on to the base. If its not VR but solenoid cut-out you may want to rebuild it with a diode. Perhaps someone can design a VR that can be put in front of the battery and leave the cut-out where its at
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Darin Hull » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:36 pm

Does anyone have any information on the VR and why they’re back ordered/not being produced currently? Is this supposed to be a temporary issue or is there concern they may no longer be produced?

I’ve got a 6v VR back ordered and was curious to what folks knew.

Darin


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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Gonenorth » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:55 am

Bernd, You might want to consider switching to LED bulbs. I know they don't look "period", but their light output is exceptional and amp draw very low. I switched the halogen and regular bulbs out of my 26 Touring (headlights, courtesy light, dual function tail lights). When they are all on, they draw a little over 1 Amp. Work so well, I switched back to a generator from an alternator. I do have a Regan VR on it. Since I have LED lights, I set it up a little different than John's instructions. I set the third brush to put out a maximum of 8 amps with a stock cutout. Even with the lights on, during starting the generator puts out only about 6 amps for a few minutes then settles back to about an amp. No problems with over-charging or a low charge in the battery. I would guess with LED bulbs and a standard cutout, you could achieve the same results with your third brush set at 3-5 amps.


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Re: VR or cutout

Post by jab35 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:39 am

Darin: Many Funprojects items became (and remain) very scarce shortly after Birdhaven acquired the business. I'm thankful for what they do provide but waited over a year for a 6V FP regulator. jb

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Re: VR or cutout

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:16 pm

Darin Hull wrote:
Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:36 pm
Does anyone have any information on the VR and why they’re back ordered/not being produced currently? Is this supposed to be a temporary issue or is there concern they may no longer be produced?
I’ve got a 6v VR back ordered and was curious to what folks knew.
Darin
At one time it was said that one of the key electronic components was no longer being manufactured. There are several schematics on the web for making a VR. Also there are electronic devices available, buck/boost converters, 6v motor cycles , golf carts that can regulate voltage and amperage output. Unfortunately I can't find any specifications (sometimes just +-ground) for them - always listed by model engine they fit. A VR like device can be added at the battery location while keeping the existing cut-out
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Topic author
Bernd
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:01 pm

Kevin and Frank,
I wonder if there could be a way to determine if it is a voltage regulator or a cutout without opening it. Something like its "behaviour", different readings on the ammeter, etc.
When I had the idea with led headlights, I sent the vendor an email. They said that the minimum order value for shipment to Germany would be 250 $, so I kept the old incandescent lamps.
Since I really want to be able to drive at night I think there is probably no way around led, considering their small apetie for watts.
Thank you,
Bernd


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Bernd
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:02 pm

Kevin and Frank,
I wonder if there could be a way to determine if it is a voltage regulator or a cutout without opening it. Something like its "behaviour", different readings on the ammeter, etc.
When I had the idea with led headlights, I sent the vendor an email. They said that the minimum order value for shipment to Germany would be 250 $, so I kept the old incandescent lamps.
Since I really want to be able to drive at night I think there is probably no way around led, considering their small apetie for watts.
Thank you,
Bernd


Topic author
Bernd
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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bernd » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:04 pm

Sorry for the double post :oops:


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Re: VR or cutout

Post by Bill Dizer » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:07 pm

Using a cut out, the cut out is simply an electromagnet that, when the generator starts putting out electricity, pulls a contact down and connects the generator to the battery and the rest of the electrical system in the car. The only way to regulate or control the output of the generator, measured in amperage or "amps" is by the speed the generator is turning, or by adjusting the charging rate with the third brush. When the generator stops putting out electricity, the cut out disconnects the generator from the battery and all other wiring, "cutting out" the system. This prevents the generator from drawing on the battery, which would ruin the generator from overheating it as it trys to "motor" or run from the battery voltage, and it of course, runs the battery down. So the cut out does exactly what it sounds like, it cuts in the generator after it starts charging, and cuts it out when it stops. A generator is self activating, requiring no voltage to start it charging. The cut out does nothing to set charging rate!

A voltage regulator combines the cut out feature, and a method of controlling the output of the generator in one unit, allowing, or forcing the generator to produce the needed amperage to maintain a set voltage in the battery and electrical system. The control can be done different ways, varying the ground to the field coils is very common. The basic idea is that the regulator senses the load on the system by variation of voltage, and changes the output to maintain it, regardless of system load, up to the capability of the generator.

How much amperage you can get from a stock ford generator and have it live reliably is fairly limited. I think most consider 5-10 amps to be a reasonable rate, possibly a bit more. That is not enough to keep up with headlights, tail lamp and dash lamp, but it keeps the drain of the battery to a low enough rate that most can live with it. As suggested, LED lights draw much less, and provide more usable lumens! It all depends on your plans for night driving, and your safety needs.

There were aftermarket generators that will put out close to or slightly more than 20 amps, which makes it better! I have a generator made probably in the thirties or forties, sold through Sears, Roebuck with their label. My repairman said it would be simple to switch to use with a regulator if I ever want to.

This is an overly simple description of the basic charging system! I hope it helps a bit.

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Re: VR or cutout

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:27 pm

Another simple option would be to separate the lighting system from the 6volt system and connect it to a separate 12 volt battery. You can then get all the power to run lights at night - recharge it when you get home.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger

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