Deleted posts.

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Luke
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2019 1:04 am
First Name: Luke
Last Name: P
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926
Location: New Zealand

Deleted posts.

Post by Luke » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:18 am

Recently I posted some information and photographs in three threads entitled "When nobody worried about scratching their T", "Possibly one of the first single-make car clubs in the world?", and "Church outing at Peel Forest, Feb 13, 1913.".

The photographs in these posts were taken between 1911 - 1921 or thereabouts and I believe there to be no copyright applicable to them. Those of you who saw the posts will also have noticed that I referenced the source of the photographs, and provided a URL with each photograph where they resided on the local public website of the 'Hocken collection' (https://hocken.recollect.co.nz/) from which said photographs originated.

In seeking to do the "right thing" and in order to contribute back to the local website, and to the general body of knowledge, in return I posted on the local website information regarding the vehicles, information on other items contained within the photographs, and in one case information on the photographer itself. I'd also asked forum members to let me know about any detail they might have on the vehicles so that I could pass that on to the local website as well.

At the same time I informed the Hocken people what I was doing, and requested permission to carry this on with a few further photographs. I felt that this was the courteous thing to do, and I wanted to ensure I wasn't treading on any toes.

The Hocken responded today. The essence of their response was that they wanted $25 for each photograph, and they asked me to fill out a form.

Although they also said they would not ask me to take down what I'd posted I have to say that I am deeply troubled at the implication of the payment and form, so I have chosen to remove the post content from the forum.

I apologise to those of you who were interested in the information (and thank those that responded), but I don't wish to be party to something I feel is morally wrong, and which may be legally questionable. I do intend to pursue this however, and hope to be able to return the information to the site at some stage.

I'm not really asking for comment here, but I felt an explanation as to why I'd deleted the posts should be forthcoming...


mtntee20
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:51 pm
First Name: Terry & Sharon
Last Name: Miller
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1920 Center Door, 1920 TTWood cab Farm Truck with cable dump grain bed, 1920 TT C-Cab with express bed, 1927 Wood body Dairy Delivery truck
Location: Westminster, CO
MTFCA Number: 32583
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: Deleted posts.

Post by mtntee20 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 6:57 am

Luke,

I understand your position and sympathize with you.

We own a train (think amusement park size) that was homemade from a View Master 3D disc of a Quick Draw McGraw cartoon. Hanna Barbera was the original owner. Today, Warner Brothers owns the rights. Knowing the train was built from that cartoon, we would have liked to display the original View Master disc cells by projecting them on a screen of some sort. We display/run the train in our Christmas display. Thinking of copyrights, we researched the current owner and contacted them with our story. Our display is NOT commercial, it's at our home like about a million other people do. Warner Brothers replied with an agreement for $450 per photo/cell PER Year. That works out to $4500 per year. Needless to say, we don't display ANY photos but we do still tell the story of the train to visitors.

Seems like when someone owns the rights to something, they believe they are sitting on a gold mine. Greed usually gets them less than if they were more civil.

Good Luck,
Terry

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Rich Eagle
Posts: 6790
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First Name: Richard
Last Name: Eagle
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909 TR 1914 TR 1915 Rd 1920 Spdstr 1922 Coupe 1925 Tudor
Location: Idaho Falls, ID
MTFCA Number: 1219
Contact:

Re: Deleted posts.

Post by Rich Eagle » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:40 am

We all to often post images that belong to other people here. I am as guilty as anyone else. I worried about this in the beginning and asked some questions about copywrites with mixed answers. I asked the manager of a very different forum if I could use a photo from his site and he said "heck yes, I just steal them off the internet".
When I paint a picture I have often tried to contact the owner of the image to see if they care. They seldom object and even sometimes seem annoyed that I asked. I post the paintings knowing they are out there and I have no control over how they are used.
I'm sure there are rules on this that are impossible to enforce. My take is that if we use something for reference to Model T information and aren't making a profit on it it may have some merit and justification. That may be wrong.
Some photos fall under public domain. We have been treated to so may photos like the one you posted. I hate to think we would no longer be able to see these. I also know we can't tax anyone with the responsibility of filtering these out before showing them.
I will try to consider posting more carefully in the future. I'm sorry for the results in your inquiry.
Rich
When did I do that?

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Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
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First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
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Re: Deleted posts.

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:10 pm

Seems like when someone owns the rights to something, they believe they are sitting on a gold mine.

Some do, and some don't. When I was manufacturing reproduction signs, licensing for some brands was so expensive that I passed. I never made Ford signs because of that. Others (Phillips 66, Texaco, Sinclair) charged a small fee I could live with. Many of the brands I made were public domain, but there were also several trademark owners who gave permission for free.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Wayne Sheldon
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Last Name: Sheldon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 Runabout 1913 Speedster
Location: Grass Valley California, USA
Board Member Since: 2005

Re: Deleted posts.

Post by Wayne Sheldon » Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:39 pm

I think the owners of those photographs should be required to pay me a few thousand dollars for pointing out some details and clarifying what some of the facts about the cars are. The information I offered clearly made their photographs more valuable than they were before.
Frankly, I am sick and tired of dealing with greedy corporations, small businesses, and individuals with delusions of grandeur. Why is it that these idiots think they have an absolute right to assault my phone with a dozen spam calls in a day (I don't even answer my phone anymore unless I recognize the caller's number (if you want to contact me, send a PM or email). But I/we cannot look at a photograph taken by someone they never knew decades before they were born unless we PAY them? They think they have a right to just anything just because they think so?
I know and totally agree that some degree of ownership of "intellectual property rights" MUST exist. People that create some assemblage of words or information need to be able to control and/or profit from that. But when there is no profit to be had? And when they in fact DID NOT create the thing of questionable value? Get real.

How many people are aware that silence has been copyrighted? Really? (Yes, it is true!) Who invented or created silence? Yet there is a history of lawsuits for infringement by several owners of such copyrights.

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Oldav8tor
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Deleted posts.

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:36 pm

You're in New Zealand so rules may be different than the US. The Hocken didn't create the images so it is doubtful they could force you to pay for their use. Also, in the US we have the "Fair Use"doctrine that allows for the publishing of even copyrighted images for non-commercial educational use. Typically the folks who want you to buy their online images either publish low-res versions or overprint them with a watermark. That said, it doesn't hurt to ask when you're unsure, in particular when it is an original work.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


tdump
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Last Name: Cole
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: TT. T express pickup,speedster project.
Location: North Carolina
MTFCA Number: 28146

Re: Deleted posts.

Post by tdump » Wed Jul 08, 2020 12:51 pm

Greed,plain and simple greed.
Same reason I would never pay the extra money for "Ford" to be on a brass radiator or something similar.If they want to own the "rights' to something,they can pay ME for the advertising.
If you can't help em, don't hinder em'

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Novice
Posts: 584
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:25 pm
First Name: Jim
Last Name: Davis
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring. 1923/26 Open Express. 1920 depot hack
Location: Tomball,Texas
MTFCA Number: 49832
MTFCI Number: 24686
Board Member Since: 2017

AX PERMISSION

Post by Novice » Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:32 pm

Tis better to beg forgiveness than to AX permission. No good deed goes unpunished!

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