Need help to identify the model year of this Model T Touring

[garage9400]

Hi,

Apologize ahead of time if this is not the correct place to post this.

I have a car I need help identifying the year, I was told it was a 1917 but I know the engine number and a few items I've looked at do not support this.

I know its typical to find all kinds of replacement parts from different years but i figured if anyone could help it'd be the people on this forum.

[garage9400]

couple more pictures

[Dbutler56]

S/n is Nov 1920

[garage9400]

S/n is Nov 1920

Thank you,
I was able to look that up on this site but do you think the rest of the car resembles a 1920?

[Dbutler56]

I might add that it appears you have a starter which wouldn’t have been original in 17 i don’t believe. But of course it could have been updated at a restoration

[John kuehn]

What does the title say the year of the car is. Looks like it’s an older restoration and maybe has some better replacement parts on it. But that’s a guess. The front shocks are an added on accessory for the era. It has the typical sloshed on brazing on the engine pan motor mounts that was typical at the factory that’s original. They weren’t building pristine show cars.
The touring body style is typical from as early as a 15 to 21 depending on the details. Others will know for sure.
The earlier touring bodies had an outside flat headed bolt right behind the front seat door frame. You can see it from the outside of the body. It was discontinued later on in that era. You might can use that to determine how old the body itself is.

[Dbutler56]

I find this link helpful

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/

[garage9400]

What does the title say the year of the car is. Looks like it’s an older restoration and maybe has some better replacement parts on it. But that’s a guess. The front shocks are an added on accessory for the era. It has the typical sloshed on brazing on the engine pan motor mounts that was typical at the factory that’s original. They weren’t building pristine show cars.
The touring body style is typical from as early as a 15 to 21 depending on the details. Others will know for sure.
The earlier touring bodies had an outside flat headed bolt right behind the front seat door frame. You can see it from the outside of the body. It was discontinued later on in that era. You might can use that to determine how old the body itself is.

Thank you ill go check for this bolt now.

Its a long story but the short version is, this is a celebrity owned car and a former employee, who did the book keeping/ baby sitting of said celebrity, embezzled money from them and took off. Unfortunately the title has still not been located and the owner does not remember what year it was or any history belonging to the car.

[garage9400]

What does the title say the year of the car is. Looks like it’s an older restoration and maybe has some better replacement parts on it. But that’s a guess. The front shocks are an added on accessory for the era. It has the typical sloshed on brazing on the engine pan motor mounts that was typical at the factory that’s original. They weren’t building pristine show cars.
The touring body style is typical from as early as a 15 to 21 depending on the details. Others will know for sure.
The earlier touring bodies had an outside flat headed bolt right behind the front seat door frame. You can see it from the outside of the body. It was discontinued later on in that era. You might can use that to determine how old the body itself is.

Is this the bolt you're referring to?

[Norman Kling]

It looks like a late 22 or early 23. It has a high radiator but the windshield is still straight with a 2 man top. That particular year there seems to be an overlap between low and high radiators as well as two man and one man tops.

[John kuehn]

Think that’s it. What I don’t know for sure is when that bolt was discontinued. There are those on the forum who have cars that have it. Since the engine is a late 1920 and if it has a starter it could be a 21 Model. That could mean it’s a 21 since Ford introduced the next years Model in Sept and your cars engine no. is Nov 20!
Without a Title it’s hard to know for sure. It could be that someone ‘supposed’ it was a 17 because a average person wouldn’t know the differences in the 17-21,22 cars since you would have to know the details about the differences. Also if the top bows are oval instead of rectangular that would be for the earlier cars.

Check to see if the car has a 5 piece back section or a 3 piece back section. You can tell from the number of seams that the cars rear section has. The 5 piece is on the earlier cars. I could be wrong but I was thinking the high radiator cars had the 3 piece back. Been wrong before!
In other word there are 5 sections instead of 3 on the earlier models.

[garage9400]

It looks like a late 22 or early 23. It has a high radiator but the windshield is still straight with a 2 man top. That particular year there seems to be an overlap between low and high radiators as well as two man and one man tops.

Thanks,
So would 22 be the first year for the high radiator?

[garage9400]

Think that’s it. What I don’t know for sure is when that bolt was discontinued. There are those on the forum who have cars that have it. Since the engine is a late 1920 and if it has a starter it could be a 21 Model. That could mean it’s a 21 since Ford introduced the next years Model in Sept and your cars engine no. is Nov 20!
Without a Title it’s hard to know for sure. It could be that someone ‘supposed’ it was a 17 because a average person wouldn’t know the differences in the 17-21,22 cars since you would have to know the details about the differences. Also if the top bows are oval instead of rectangular that would be for the earlier cars.

Check to see if the car has a 5 piece back section or a 3 piece back section. You can tell from the number of seams that the cars rear section has. The 5 piece is on the earlier cars. I could be wrong but I was thinking the high radiator cars had the 3 piece back. Been wrong before!
In other word there are 5 sections instead of 3 on the earlier models.

Looks like 3 piece correct? or do you mean the whole back half of the car?

[George Hand]

Edward, unless this is a "Johnny Cash" or a "bitsa" car, I see forged running board brackets which were last used in the spring of 1920, more photos please, need to see rear axle fill plug, front & rear springs, ft. axle showing the wishbone. right floor riser under floor mat. does it have a round or oval fuel tank, does it have a wood, metal or no door under the front seat cushion show us a picture of the fuel cap location. Under the rear seat cushion is the frame work metal or wood ? When I bought my 1920 it was registered as a 1921 with a 1924 engine. I knew that was incorrect for many of the same questions I am asking here. On my car at the right front floor riser I found digits indicating it was a Fisher body made in January of 1920. George Hand

[Rich Bingham]

Driveshaft spool has enclosed studs, running board braces are forged, pointing toward 1919 or earlier.

[garage9400]

Edward, unless this is a "Johnny Cash" or a "bitsa" car, I see forged running board brackets which were last used in the spring of 1920, more photos please, need to see rear axle fill plug, front & rear springs, ft. axle showing the wishbone. right floor riser under floor mat. does it have a round or oval fuel tank, does it have a wood, metal or no door under the front seat cushion show us a picture of the fuel cap location. Under the rear seat cushion is the frame work metal or wood ? When I bought my 1920 it was registered as a 1921 with a 1924 engine. I knew that was incorrect for many of the same questions I am asking here. On my car at the right front floor riser I found digits indicating it was a Fisher body made in January of 1920. George Hand

Hi George,

I added the pictures you asked to my dropbox here is the link https://www.dropbox.com/sh/2kd7nse51s33 ... KC1a?dl=0

if you cant see them let me know post them here.

I'm not sure what you mean by floor riser though?

It has a round gas tank

Thanks for you help

[John kuehn]

Your car has a 5 piece back. It’s the earlier low cowl style. If you count the panels starting from the rear door and around the rear of the car to the other side there are 5.
Look closely and you can see the 2 narrower panels that are on either side of the rear panel and the 2 panels directly ahead of the narrow panels. Total is 5.
The later style high cowl bodies don’t have those 2 narrower rounded panels that are on either side of the rear panel.
Also the low cowl cars like yours have the rear top bow brackets that go over the body whereas the later high cowl cars the rear top bow brackets go through the body, not over like the earlier body like yours is.
If your car has a round tank and has the forged running board brackets like you picture show it’s no later than 1919. That means you car is a definite low cowl car with the earlier low style black radiator.
What’s NOT original is the added on gas filter that’s in one pic. The tank probably needs to be cleaned out. Not sure but the exhaust pipe and muffler may have been rerouted. The muffler is seen directly under the rear floorboard. Think that’s been changed.

[perry kete]

Unless you have firm authenticated documentation that a celebrity owned the car it will add no value to the car or purchase price.

[garage9400]

Unless you have firm authenticated documentation that a celebrity owned the car it will add no value to the car or purchase price.

Not trying to bolster or sell it as a celebrity owned car. He's a customer and we're just trying to do him a favor and get the car titled correctly.

[John kuehn]

And not having a title takes at least 500.00 or more off the final selling price. That’s a no go for some. If your trying to get a title I would use the engine no that’s in the car. At least it would match the title for somebody else trying to buy it later. It would be an easier sell for sure.
Without any more than what’s been shown or further knowledge of its history that’s the safe way to go. But that’s for me and others may think a little differently.
But be aware of the added on fuel filter because that’s a sign of someone’s earlier concern.
Good luck.

[Dbutler56]

I am unclear as to why he just doesn’t submit the form and get a duplicate title. It is an easy process.

[garage9400]

I am unclear as to why he just doesn’t submit the form and get a duplicate title. It is an easy process.

If you've ever dealt with a good majority of celebrities, there isnt much they like to do themselves, Plus like I said he doesn't know what year it is or pretty much anything about it unfortunately. Just trying to be as correct as I can be.

[George Hand]

Edward the floor risers are the left & right boards (they maybe tin also) that angle up from the front floor & the upper front floor board(s) lay on, your has no vendor stamping so I believe you body was produced by Ford, unless you find a large letter W stamped on the forward face of the front seat riser which would mean the body was built by Wilson. Confusing for sure but Henry could not build 10,000 cars a day with out Vender support so things are not always the same. From what I can see without a personal inspection my best guess is the car is a 1919 with an early 21 engine, not uncommon. As I said without a personal inspection I can not be sure. George

[John kuehn]

I think George H is as close as your going to get in nailing down an exact year for the Touring.
This post peaked my interest because I have a 21 Touring also.
When restoring the remains of my car I soon discovered this era of T’s Is a real transitional time of change of a little of this and a little of that besides it being done with parts overlapping from year to year! Buts that’s another story and to much to go through.
The engines are pretty much alike in that time period and the engine was probably changed out so it was a drop in. The forged fender brackets have probably been on the car since it was built so it’s not newer than a 20 but the engine probably has been changed since that would have problems before changing the fender brackets.

Without the original title that’s about as close as you can get.

[kmatt2]

I remember a Vintage Ford story on a original early to mid 1921 touring with records going back to when it was bought new. That car was a lot like this one with 5 panel back section and forged running board brackets. If the Nov 1920 engine is original to the car then some earlier parts could be OK because in Dec of 1920 Ford took all available parts at the factory and made as many cars as they could. Ford shipped these cars to the dealers on sight drafts and the dealers had to pay for them or lose their Ford dealership. Ford closed the factory in Jan 1921 saving labor cost. Ford had the big loan due in Jan 1921 on the money he used to buy out the other Ford Mo Co share holder's. I think that this car has had some parts changed with better swap meet parts like the mis matched wheels, nondemoutable front and demountable rear, maybe the front and or rear end. I would call the car a 1920 if the title VIN matches the engine number. If the title says 1917 as you have been told and the VIN matches the engine number I would not worry about it or say anything to the DMV.

[Steve Jelf]

Unless it's original paperwork, the title is not a dependable clue in dating a Model T. Many times it's wrong. This car appears to have the 1920 and earlier front spring clip peeking out from behind that Texas plate. A starter engine is 1919 and later, of course. The November 1920 engine (1921 model year) could be a replacement, but for title purposes I would go with 1921.

[garage9400]

Thank you guys for all your help. I'm going to hold out a little longer and see if paperwork turns up before doing anything but a least i'm not completely lost now on a ball park of what it is.