Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

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dobro1956
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Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by dobro1956 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 3:47 pm

As some may remember, a few months ago I started my new rebuilt speedster project engine. But during that process I developed a very bad oil leak at the passenger side crankcase engine mount area and also blew a head gasket. So after many days of ranting and raving as well as many curse words, I have finally pulled the engine and repaired all the problems (I hope). I installed a solid copper head gasket this time. It is one of the gaskets Les Shubert made a while back out of "dead soft copper" It is very nice as to quality. When I removed the head I really did not find any issues that were obvious. I may have only needed to re-torque the head bolts ??????? But that is a bad memory in the past at this time. :( :( So after all typing the above, I am asking for any tips or info on using a solid copper head gasket. I have read a lot online as to their use on more modern racing engines. But most does not apply for our engines. My main question is torque specs.. ?? I currently have the head torqued to 50lbs. I used two coats of copper spray on each side of the gasket. A few details as to my engine are the head has been milled flat as well as the block was milled flat. So I should have a very good surface to work with. The head is a Rajo 4 valve. so every time I re-torque I have to remove the rocker assembly to get to two head bolts located under the towers. I also installed "cast valve heads" where the original intake valves were located in the block. That is an "old school" trick to give extra support to the head gasket at that area. The "valve heads" have holes drilled in them to allow the push rods to pass thru.
Any help or suggestions will be appreciated.


2nighthawks
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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:34 pm

Donnie - Were you able to determine exactly where the head gasket blew? And, if so, was it anywhere near one of those "cast valve heads" that you installed? Otherwise, with a newly milled/surfaced head and block surface, I can't imagine how a properly torqued solid copper head gasket could blow out! Just wondering if possibly one of those valve heads could have somehow interfered with the head laying perfectly flat (???) .....harold


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by 2nighthawks » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:42 pm

.......or,......in thinking about it, perhaps one of those "cast valve heads" you installed, might have been just a "thou' or two lower than the block surface, and the then unsupported solid copper head gasket at that point might have ruptured when that cylinder fired, and then blew out thru' that particular unused intake port,....??? That's why I asked if you could determine exactly the location where the head gasket blew out. I can imagine your frustration,....harold


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by Kevin Pharis » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:04 pm

I ran a .040” solid copper head gasket on my flat T for years with reliable results. No special attention was given beyond the typical torque spec and pattern. I also annealed and reused it several times during this time. Did always wonder if excessively torquing the aluminum head could distort the flatness and cause premature leakage... but never went beyond 55 lbs to find out.

I made many of these solid copper gaskets years ago, and always offered a can of aerosol Hylomar sealant along with em. I had a few complaints about the gaskets sealing water, usually from customers that didn’t by the sealer. Not sure what they used, but im sure the Hylomar would have worked better.

And I recall the discussion about your using the valve heads... I’d leave em out. If they sit too low, they do nothing. And if they sit too high, they ruin everything. And .001” - .002” high or low could be hard to find with the disk wiggling around in the hole. If you want to fill the seats, plug em right and surface the whole thing afterwards

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dobro1956
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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:43 pm

Thanks for the input. Kevin and Harold. The head gasket that blew out was a "sandwich" style gasket. It was copper and some kind of fiber material inside. It was just like the copper gaskets the vendors sell. It had the proper fire rings at the cylinder openings. (The term "blew out" may be misleading. It was just leaking water into the #1 cylinder and bubbling water at the front two driver side head bolts. I had coated it with KW copper spray. When I removed the head I found nothing to indicate why it was leaking. I could tell water was going between the gasket and block but no apparent reason as to why. In "hind sight" I may have been able to re-torque the head bolts and solved the leak. ???? But Ill never know for sure now. I checked the valve plugs with a feeler gauge and also a flashlight using a machinest paraelle bar as a straight edge. The #2 intake plug may have set crooked when I glued them in place with JB Weld. If it was crooked it was .001 at most. This time I clamped them in place using a machinest 1-2-3 block and milling machine set up clamp system. There is no way they are crooked this time. Doing every test I can think of all 4 of the valve port plugs are now perfectly flat with the deck surface. The lack of support at the valve port area is a design flaw with the 4 Valve Rajo heads. Everyone I talked to that has ran a 4 valve head with no attempt to address the valve port area has blown head gaskets.

I used KW Copper spay this time on the solid copper (dead soft) head gasket. I sprayed two light even coats, letting it flash for about 15 minutes between coats. The head bolts are currently at 50 lbs. I may go to 55lbs. My engine block is a 1919 and I have head that the earlier blocks will not hold a bolt torqued over 50lbs. ???? But I think that is for the "low head" engines ?? So 55lbs should be OK on my 1919 engine. I may be "over thinking" this and be worried for little reason but, Head gaskets for the 4 valve are not cheap, they are in the 150.00 to 200.00 price range. I think Im going to run the engine for long enough to get the water hot (aprox 5 minutes). Then let it cool down and do a re-torque at that time.

Thanks for the input. I may be able to have the engine back in the car in a week or so. So we should know what happens then .....


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Jul 09, 2020 2:08 pm

Donnie - This'll probably sound "dumb", but in torquing head bolts, I can never remember if you're supposed torque them down cold, or after the engine gets hot. So, typically of me, just to be SURE, I start by sequentially torquing the head bolts up to 55 lbs cold, and then fire it up and immediately sequentially torquing them again hot! I figure that even if one way is wrong, doing it both "hot & cold" sure can't hurt anything, right? And if easing up to 55 lb and a bolt or two happens to tighten up even a little bit more at 55 lb either hot or cold, I feel like whatever I did was right! ......just another of my weird ways of looking at things,......FWIW,......harold

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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Jul 09, 2020 4:43 pm

I'm of the opinion that 55 lbs. is a bit too much !

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dobro1956
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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by dobro1956 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 8:45 pm

Steve, Im inclined to agree with you. I have used 55lbs in the past with good results, But I have also occasionally stripped out threads when trying to get to 55lbs. I always have just wrote it off to bad threads, or weak threads when that happened. But I do not remember ever stripping a thread at 50lbs. It may be that the torque threshold is about 55lbs but we are stretching the threads to their limits . ??? I think Ill stay with the 50lbs I have at this time...

Harold. I have always torqued cold. then re-torqued after a heat cycle of hot back to cold. I just keep checking the torque after each heat cycle till nothing changes. May not be right but its my way to do torque .:)


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by 2nighthawks » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:42 pm

So, I learned something! Guess what I've learned is that apparently, I've just been lucky, huh? Altho I've never torqued head bolts on a brass "T",....I know they're the ones that strip easier. So from now on, it's 50lbs max for me too! Thanx fer' the warning,.....harold

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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by RajoRacer » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:29 pm

I also do the torque "cold" procedure after several heating & cooling cycles.


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by Dan McEachern » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:52 pm

Biggest issue with a T head is the number of head bolts and the layout make it difficult to get great clamp pressure on a head gasket, but it does seem to work most of the time.

I've had good luck using Copper Coat on solid copper gaskets as far as preventing water leakage. As far as torque- ya need to be carefull of those two bolts that go thru the intake ports, because there is no support or a boss to support the roof of the port and lots of torque on those two bolts could ruin your day.
I would say to go with 50 ft-lb to start and see how it feels. If things start to get mushy, stop. If it feels ok,pull all but the two center bolts to 55.

You can try retorquing, but I don't think much is gong to change with the solid gasket. Certainly won't hurt .

Good luck!

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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by dobro1956 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:46 am

Dan, Thanks for the input. I am aware of the two center bolts. I have heard that the head can crack because of the "hollow" cavity that those two bolts pass thru. So I am paying close attention to those two bolts. I have also wondered what the affect of the longer bolts has on the torque value of those two bolts.?? Since they are longer they should have more "stretch" to them than the stock length bolts. But I really have no idea what that affects. I cleaned and checked depth of threads on all the holes in my block. All the threads look good visually, but the head bolts have a little "wiggle" to them when fully inserted into the holes. . So I am assuming my threads have some wear to them. Glad to hear that Copper Coat has worked for you. I have always used Copper Coat on stock gaskets with no issues. But I keep hearing Hylamar Blue is better ???.

I have everything back together and its ready to put back in the car. All I need to do is a little paint touch-up before it goes back in. So maybe Ill get to install it Saturday. :) :)


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Re: Speedster project uopdate, Solid Copper Head Gasket torque question.

Post by Aussie16 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:45 pm

Hi Don, This image was posted to one of the model T facebook pages I watch. I thought it looked like the original version of your car. I have enjoyed watching your build progress. I had a 4 valve Rajo on a Tudor Sedan at one point. Never had any Head gasket issues. It was a newly made composite type with copper and asbestos alternative inside. I think it is important to have a sandwich of something in between the copper to torque down on. I also put valve tops in the seats for the extra support of the gasket.
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