Dead Engines Can Run?

[1194668jc]

Hi, John again. You may have noticed my dumb questions in the past. Here's another. I recall watching a YouTube video claiming that the model t engine can be in TERRIBLE condition and still run. I already addressed the question on speed vs the engine, now I'd like to know what kind of major problems a T can have and still run. A modern car will let you know if something's wrong, but I have a feeling a T might be more secretive. (I dont own a T, but am getting as much info possible here).

[Squirrel]

The oil funnel and line in mine had been plugged, apparently for decades, and it still ran. The bearings were not in very bad condition, either. It also had a crack in the head, at least 6" long, and had been that way for quite a while.

[DanTreace]

All a T engine will need is good gas delivered to the cylinders ( 4 good, 3 may do ) with enough compression (low but sufficient) , and a spark (warm good, hot better ) , sufficiently timed ( for fire after top dead center), at the plugs. Oh, if run for long will need oil and coolant in the block circulating.

The engine will run, but may be noisy from valve wear, cam, bearings, and stuff, providing a missing and rattling but running motor.

[HPetrino]

The bottom line is that Model T engines are extremely simple. An engine my be "plumb wore out" and still run because nothing critical has actually failed, like a broken rod, valve, piston, crankshaft. etc. In my opinion the reason they keep running as they do is the absence of many modern car features. There is no fuel pump, water pump, oil pump, complicated ignition system, etc. to fail, so they just keep running.

Us old T guys are kinda like that. We just keep going until something critical fails.

Anyhow, my $0.02 worth.

[John kuehn]

Old tractors are kinda of that way too. Fairly easy to fix and simple mechanically.
No computers, electronic ignition and etc. Used to be an ‘old sayin’ that was ‘simple works the best‘ and that’s pretty much true.
Believe it or not more than a few young mechanics at car dealerships have never set breaker points in distributors. The T ignition system is simple along with the rest of it that’s moving internally and a minimum of moving parts.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Many years ago, I rode with some friends (8 or 9 of us) in two cars (one model A, one model T) headed for a meet. It was almost 200 miles each way, we started out before sunup. About two thirds of the way there, something in the T went Kabang and the car started running very badly and making a lot of nasty noise. After stopping on the side of the road to check it out, not finding anything outside the motor that didn't belong there, and nothing to make it run better, we continued to push onward, making it to the meet. Lots of other cars and people there, we spent more time along with helpers checking the engine over. Pulled the side valve cover, valves were all moving like they were supposed to. Ignition seemed okay, plugs all looked good. Fuel was flowing. We stayed at the meet awhile, then headed for home. Several people offered help (antique automobile people are like that!), but we decided to take it easy and try to make it on our own. 200 miles and home we were. The friend who's model T it was said he would tear into it later, it had been a long day.
He and another tore into it a day later, and found one of the pistons in several pieces. It had fractured around the ring grooves leaving a short part attached to the connecting rod. Apparently when looking into the spark plug holes at the meet, the top of the remains of the piston just sat there pretending to work riding up and down slowly. When running, pieces were flying around and hitting each other and were beaten to bits (made a lot of noise!). No damage had been done to the cylinder, but a lot of cleaning of debris was needed. A phone call to order a new piston, and the car was running again in a week.

Gotta love model Ts!

[JohnH]

Having driven halfway across the city on only two cylinders (a valve retaining pin broke), it's remarkable just what a T engine is capable of. Provided there's a degree of compression in at least two cylinders, and the crankshaft is intact, it will 'run'. I ran my original condition engine for seven years until the crankshaft broke. The only thing that completely put it out of action prior to the crankshaft breaking was a hole in the head when a valve broke off. Otherwise, it was happily running with the original babbit bearings and around 25-35psi compression. I'd regularly drive it at 75km/h down the freeway like that.
What really surprised me is just how far I'd driven it with no thrust washers in the diff (several thousand km), and when I did take up the crankshaft bearings a couple of years after I got the car, the 3rd one next to the flywheel must have had about 1/8" clearance - its cap needed a lot of filing! Yet it ran so smooth and gave a lot of free starts. The radiator was original and getting worse, so boiling more often than not. At one time it boiled dry and the head turned purple, but after letting it cool down it was fine.

[Wayne Sheldon]

Believe it or not! A very good friend of mine broke a crankshaft in his touring car. Traveling with a friend, rides were hitched and they returned shortly with pickup and trailer. Just for kicks, he turned the crank, and the broken ends sorta kinda latched together. He was able to gently drive it up onto the trailer with a broken crankshaft!

[Duey_C]

By gum! John. there ARE fellas here that hold similar thoughts to mine. These little Fords are tough! And ready to go.
The 24 runabout with a 19 engine that's plumb wore out but purrs/babbles like a kitten. While running...
And good power for what he is.
Valve seats barely done.
Valves (two piece) ground in a drill and bench grinder.
There are two cylinders with enough compression to actually start it up. The other two? Mostly forget it.
No starter. Never will be. Hand start only.
Center main bearing and rod bearings so bad my speed is limited to about 25. Just retard the spark a bit, listen and go.
In terrible condition and runs like the wind.
The 24 here is like Gunga-Din (poor representation). I've beat him, run him too hard and yet? All too willing to serve.
The light-moving 18 Runabout that lives here is a naughty alternative.
Perfect upstairs (new pistons, rings and valves) but never touched downstairs in his past life (worn out bearings) so I'm limited to the same speed but I can get there much quicker! He had a plugged oil tube too.
The late TT here is always ready to serve.
All ya really gotta do is listen to that engine. I'm an engine guy of all sorts so that's what I do.

[Allan]

Not only are the motorsvery forgiving, other parts of the T are just as un-stoppable. I have an 11 tooth pinion gear with just 10 teeth. I heard a click when slowing for a red light, but took little notice at the time. It was at the last set of lights before the final 8km from home. I could pick up a new ticking noise, but of you had been riding with me I am sure it would have gon un-noticed, until I hit trailing throttle near home. It growled then, went back to ticking under power, and then growling as I turned into the driveway.
One tooth had broken off completely, leaving two pieces in the bottom of the pumpkin, but the gears are such that it would still drive.

Allan from down under.

[Rich Eagle]

If I may get on my soap box, thousands of engines are scrapped or completely rebuilt that have lots of miles left in them. Good, solid, nicely compressed babbitt is tossed out and material from the cylinders is needlessly ground away. I have heard enough stories of truing crankshaft journals with emery cloth and filing rod caps that I have done so a few times. My Coupe engine was refurbished in the '50s by and old timer. The journals were perfectly round although everything was worn beyond the rebuild specs. I put rings in it hoping to get a few miles out of it and have put several thousand miles on it. It runs unevenly and has less compression but turns over and starts easily. That helps in the cold weather too.
The engine in my 1909 was rebuilt in the 60s and has 10 or 12 thousand miles on it. Maybe more. Many were at 50 to 60 mph. It had been bored a little tight for aluminum pistons and seized shortly after. The ugly groves in the pistons hold oil and it still has good compression and gives free starts. Most of the rod shims have been removed. I broke a crankshaft in it in 1978 and fit another one in it's place.
If you want to, fiddle around with old engines and you can make many of them run. I some ways there is some "authenticity" to that as that is what many old timers did out of necessity. There is some satisfaction to it but you can't expect them to run as well as a good rebuild. You may have much more time in it than what a professional would take to do it right. They couldn't make any money playing that game.
A friend persuaded me to get his '15 motor running. He claimed he remembered it running well when his Father had it. I went through the coils, carburetor and cleaned the timer. It would not start. The head was pulled and I ground the valves and seats. The local parts guy didn't have adjustable lifters and I didn't want to wait for an order so I decided to fit them by grinding the stems. Adjusting them to piston travel was impossible. After 2 days of fooling around I determined the camshaft was bent. I had never heard of that before. I put my best spare in and finished the valve setting. Getting the head back on (a high compression one) It still would not start. Without a gauge I determined it must be low compression and suggested putting new rings in.
I will say I am not a mechanic but have had good luck on my own engines that I know the history of. Working for others has never been productive for me.
At this point he said he didn't want to spend the money any further, how much did he owe me? Considering I had nearly a hundred hours in it, it still didn't run and he had a later engine that he knew ran I asked if he wanted to let me keep the '15 engine for the parts and labor. That sounded good to us both and I went through it as thoroughly as I could with new rings etc.
At long last the engine went back together and still wouldn't start. It had tighter cylinders/pistons that did my Coupe engine so I am not sure why. Maybe pulling the car rather than had cranking would have worked. The finish on the rings was black rather than shiny as the Coupe pistons. Maybe they weren't seating yet. Discouraged, I opted to send the engine off and have it professionally redone.

My concussion to all of this is that if you want to have some fun there is a lot of good in these old parts that goes to waste otherwise. It is satisfying but can be less fruitful that other choices. A lot of parts are out there begging to be saved if that is how you want to enjoy your time.
Rich

[otrcman]

I remember one of my uncles saying (in reference to a Model A),

"That motor is so wore out that the pistons keep changin' holes while you're goin' down the road."

[Mark Gregush]

My 25 still has cast iron pistons and don't think the transmission has ever been gone through. Sure it does clunk a little when you stop. I did not have enough rings to finish so I installed two 1/8" rings in the top groove in No 1, 2 and 3 holes when I honed the cylinders and took up the rods. Has great compression and runs nice. Even still runs good on magneto! Had a Model A that had been sitting for a looong time. Got it running. When I did pull the engine down, ring were broken in pieces some of which were missing or frozen in place and the some of areas between the rings were broken away, they two were gone. Where I don't know, but it ran that way.

[Rich Eagle]

Cast iron pistons, two piece valves and insulation off of the field coils. I would have replaced the field coil when I was in there this Spring except the mag is working so good. The Coupe makes me appreciate how good my other Ts run. It's also an experiment in what we can get away with.