Help with ID

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:15 pm

Hi Folks;
New to the forum and excited to be here. Need a little help from all of you in identifying my new garage project.
I have included a few pics that I hope will help.
Thanks in advance.
Attachments
20200726_080127 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080127 (1) copy.jpg (87.51 KiB) Viewed 7040 times
20200726_080119 copy.jpg
20200726_080119 copy.jpg (100.23 KiB) Viewed 7040 times
20200726_080104 copy.jpg
20200726_080104 copy.jpg (71.28 KiB) Viewed 7040 times
20200726_080019 copy.jpg
20200726_080019 copy.jpg (107.94 KiB) Viewed 7040 times
20200726_075948 copy.jpg
20200726_075948 copy.jpg (86.59 KiB) Viewed 7040 times


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:16 pm

A few more pics
Attachments
20200726_080706 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080706 (1) copy.jpg (93.66 KiB) Viewed 7038 times
20200726_080642 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080642 (1) copy.jpg (77.23 KiB) Viewed 7038 times
20200726_080602 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080602 (1) copy.jpg (97.78 KiB) Viewed 7038 times
20200726_080426 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080426 (1) copy.jpg (112.7 KiB) Viewed 7038 times
20200726_080127 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080127 (1) copy.jpg (87.51 KiB) Viewed 7038 times


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:21 pm

A few more
Attachments
20200726_080724 (1) copy.jpg
20200726_080724 (1) copy.jpg (90.16 KiB) Viewed 7036 times
20200726_080002 copy.jpg
20200726_080002 copy.jpg (110.78 KiB) Viewed 7036 times

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Help with ID

Post by Oldav8tor » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:35 pm

Hmmm..... The casting date on the engine block is January 20, 1917. The rest of it looks like maybe 1916ish? Brass radiators ended with the 1916 model year. The headlight lenses are from the 20's but they could have been replaced. The demountable wheels are 1919 or later

The engine serial number is located above the upper coolant elbow on the left side of the engine. The engine may not be original to the car.

Welcome to the forum.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:50 pm

Thanks Oldav8tor.

Figured it was a mix and match. Kinda like the 63 Harley Pacer in one of the pics. It too was a mix and match but after a few years I was able to chase down the proper parts.
And so it begins again.


Herb Iffrig
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:47 am
First Name: Herb
Last Name: Iffrig
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Torpedo, 1918 TT Hucksters
Location: St. Peters, MO

Re: Help with ID

Post by Herb Iffrig » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:15 pm

Is it a wide track?

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Help with ID

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:18 pm

Tim is correct. 1916 runabout with 1919 or later wheels. The front springs, wishbone, and some other parts are also later than 1916. The funny radiator hose is modern, of course. You can leave it and enjoy it as is, or you can make a project of finding "correct" parts one or two at a time. Either way is fun.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Erik Johnson
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
First Name: Erik
Last Name: Johnson
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Help with ID

Post by Erik Johnson » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:38 am

Later car dolled up to look like a 1915 or 1916. I'll bet it started life as a 1917 Ford.

Splash shields are 1917.

Windshield is 1917 and later.

It looks like there is a notch in the cowl above the coil box lid. If there is, that indicates a 1917 or later body.

On the passenger side floor riser, look for a body number either stamped directly into the wood or on a metal tag nailed to the riser. That will have a serial number and a month and year.

If there is no number of the floor riser, then remove the seat cushion, lift the trap door and lock for a body number on the seat ledge.


Allan
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Help with ID

Post by Allan » Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:25 am

Eric, I beg to differ on the 17 windscreen. 1916 was the last of the hinge centred on the break in the screens, as this one is. !7 and later had the offset hinges which leaves the windscreen somewhat taller when folded. I don't know about the splash aprons/valences. They look just like my Canadian 1915 items. Is there a difference in US examples.
My first impression was 1916, with a couple of later upgrades, as already mentioned.

Allan from down under.


John kuehn
Posts: 3907
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:00 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Kuehn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 19 Roadster, 21 Touring, 24 Coupe
Location: Texas
MTFCA Number: 28924

Re: Help with ID

Post by John kuehn » Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:07 am

First impression is a 16 with the headlights and later stuff added on but what caught my eye was the radiator. Looks like it has been leaking for a while and probably age has caught up with it. Wonder what the title says what year it is.
Brass cars have the big ticket item which is the radiator and this one will be at least 6-700.00 for at least a recore. New one around 1200.00.
The car looks to me to have been painted before and probably an earlier redo with later wheels. Good thing it’s been inside for awhile and not weather beaten from being left outside. A good project to first get it running and driving and then decide which direction to go with doing a refresh or restoration.
Will be fun for sure!

User avatar

Chris Instness
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:49 pm
First Name: Christopher
Last Name: Instness
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1915 runabout, 1923 speedster
Location: Roseville, Ca
MTFCA Number: 52552

Re: Help with ID

Post by Chris Instness » Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:00 am

Looks kind of like my garage Don, I have a 1915 runabout and a Harley Hummer. Nice looking T. Have fun with it.


Norman Kling
Posts: 4070
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: Help with ID

Post by Norman Kling » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:00 am

Looks like Johnny Cash's first car! :lol: I think the earlier posts have nailed it.
Norm


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Help with ID

Post by Original Smith » Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:28 am

If I could see the spark and throttle rods, that would tell me if it is a true 15 or 16. The '15s still have the flattened spark and throttle rods, like a '14. The engine is later for sure. Hope this helps.


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:28 pm

Thanks every one for your time and input. I will be pursuing the other request for data and hope to nail it this weekend.

V/R
Don

User avatar

Oldav8tor
Posts: 1929
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:39 am
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Juhl
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1917 Touring
Location: Thumb of Michigan
MTFCA Number: 50297
MTFCI Number: 24810
Board Member Since: 2018

Re: Help with ID

Post by Oldav8tor » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:36 pm

I have a '17 and the windshield looks like yours. The offset hinges first appeared in April 1917, prior to that they were still like the 1916. My car was built in September of 1916 and doesn't have the offset hinges.

Regarding the "modern" radiator hose - there is a steel tube that goes in that location - joined to the elbow on one end and the radiator on the other with red rubber hoses.

Your headlight buckets are typical for a '16-'17, however during that time period the lenses were just plain glass. Bulbs ran off the magneto and varied in brightness with engine speed. Bulb life was typically short.

Steve Jelf is correct about the car. If it were mine, I would just enjoy it. In their century of existence, all Model T's have been modified in one way or another by a host of previous owners. If you want a prize-winning show car it can get very frustrating and expensive.
1917 Touring
1946 Aeronca Champ
1952 Willys M38a1 Jeep (sold 2023)
1953 Ford Jubilee Tractor


Erik Johnson
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
First Name: Erik
Last Name: Johnson
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Help with ID

Post by Erik Johnson » Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:57 pm

Note that the windshield is screwed to the cowl-to-windshield/sidelight brackets - not riveted. That's the reason I posted that it was a 1917 or later windshield. I overlooked the hinges not being offset.

1915, 1916 and very early 1917 still the riveted windshield.

Click on this link to see the riveted windshield of Jim Sim's unrestored 1917 touring - it has an August 1916 serial number, the first month of the 1916 model year.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1416017659


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:34 pm

So after a bit more digging and studying various items on my jalopy, it would appear that the car is in fact a 1916 but the engine is a Jan of 1917. The reason for this drill is to insure I understand the proper replacement parts required. For example, I was able to confirm the hood profile and measurements are that of a 1916. Therefore the hoods profile will dictate the replacement radiator. A few articles posted suggested that Ford wouldn't necessarily cut off previous years parts used at years end and would often create a few hybrid models. If true, makes me wonder if the mix of a 1916 chassis with a 1917 motor on my car was the case. At any rate I will build it back as a 1916...

Again thanks guys for getting me pushed forward.

Don


Erik Johnson
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
First Name: Erik
Last Name: Johnson
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Help with ID

Post by Erik Johnson » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:58 pm

Did you locate the body number as I suggested in one of my earlier posts? That number includes the month and year.


Sheri
Posts: 36
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:54 pm
First Name: Sheri
Last Name: Cameron
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1909, 1911, 1915
Location: Minnesota

Re: Help with ID

Post by Sheri » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:35 pm

The extra bolts into the cowl above the coil box is a dead giveaway that this is a 1917 or later body that has had a 15-16 hood former scabbed onto it. This car has no true 15-16 features and is likely a 17 model that has been back dated to look like a 16 model.


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:36 pm

@ Eric Johnson
I looked on the passenger side wooden riser for the numbers with no luck. Also under the seat. I will try again. I am not confident that the risers were not replaced.

As a follow up the hood profile is definitely not round as a 1917 should be. Wish me luck.
Last edited by jakerake1 on Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 11:40 pm

@ Sheri
I noted the firewall brackets to be 1916 vintage. They look like the ones in the attached photo.
Boy it sure gets confusing trying to figure 16 or 17 but I REALLY appreciate all you folks keen eyes on it to help sort it out.

V/R
Don
Attachments
Brackets.jpg


Erik Johnson
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
First Name: Erik
Last Name: Johnson
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Help with ID

Post by Erik Johnson » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:50 am

In order to install a 1915 or 1916 hood former on a 1917-22 Ford, I believe you have to swap out the stamped steel firewall brackets and install the ones that you posted (however, I may be wrong so others please chime in).

If you really want your car scrutinized, supply better lit, larger file size photos.

Also - look for the body tag or stamping as I have previously mentioned. That will give you a definite date for the body.

Is there a notch in cowl just above the coil box? If so, that indicates a 1917 or later body.

Your coil box is later than 1916. If the switch housing is hard rubber, that is 1917. If it is stamped metal, it is later than 1917.

As mentioned earlier, the splash guards appear to be 1917 - although they have the "bulge" in the rear the front edge appears to be too round/curved to be correct to match the front flat fenders.

The front spring, perches, shackles and wishbone are much later.

So far, what I see is a 1917 Ford that has been "dolled up" to look like a 1916. This is very common in the hobby - folks have been doing it since the 1950s. However, I would like to see more and better photos to see if I am right or wrong. A true, 1916 Ford is more desirable than a 1917 Ford.

The above isn't meant to be mean or facetious. At this point in time, based on the few photos, it is just too convenient to say it is a 1916 Ford that simply has a 1917 motor (which, by the way, is a huge red flag that the car is a 1917 Ford). Not that you can't keep it in its current configuration - that's perfectly okay.

PS: there is no evidence in your photos of trunk latches/handles.
Last edited by Erik Johnson on Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:17 am, edited 2 times in total.


Erik Johnson
Posts: 850
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:25 pm
First Name: Erik
Last Name: Johnson
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Help with ID

Post by Erik Johnson » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:58 am

Also - here is my unrestored 1917 roadster.

It would be very easy for me to make it look like a 1916 roadster by installing a 1915-16 hood former and swapping out the hood, radiator, fenders and splash guards.
Attachments
1917 roadster 1.jpg


Topic author
jakerake1
Posts: 12
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:05 pm
First Name: Don
Last Name: Germain
Location: Woodbury
MTFCA Number: 51123

Re: Help with ID

Post by jakerake1 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:25 am

You guys are awesome. Thanks again for your precious time and input. Regarding the picture size. What is a good format that might be easier to view yet be of small enough pixel size to meet the forums requirement.

V/R
Don

User avatar

A Whiteman
Posts: 992
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:36 pm
First Name: Adrian
Last Name: Whiteman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 TT, 1924 Colonial Roadster, 1924 'Bullnose' Morris, 1925 'Bullnose' Morris, 1936 JD AR
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Help with ID

Post by A Whiteman » Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:12 pm

My ID on it is: A Lot Of Fun :-)

Enjoy and welcome to the hobby


ModelT46
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 8:35 pm
First Name: Darel
Last Name: Leipold
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 touring
Location: Excelsior MN
MTFCA Number: 823
MTFCI Number: 953
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Help with ID

Post by ModelT46 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:17 pm

I like discussions such as this one. It was common at one time to build up a Model T from avaiable parts. In the 1950s, there were many new body parts still sitting in older Ford Dealers. This T has rear fenders with out the bulge that came in 1917. This Model T reminds me of a "1918" roadster I owned from 1956 to about 1975. It was built up from parts in 1942. The body was from 1916, the rest of the body circa 1917-23. I believe that the fenders, running boards, hood and any other body parts were NOS from Ford dealers. The chassis was post 1918. The engine was a 1926-27 engine. There was not of bit of rust and the undercarriage was clean. I was contacted by the owner to buy a replacment head so he could sell the T. I went to see and bought it as is. It is owned by a friend here in Minnesota, so I really should arrange to see. It was driven only a few miles since I sold it to the present owner's dad.


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Help with ID

Post by Original Smith » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:55 am

Apparently, a few missed my post above. The car has to be a '16. There is no notch above the lid on the coilbox for the radiator support rod.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic