MTFCA Forum

For those who own or are familiar with a 1909/10 Touring, was the rear floorboard covered with a fitted, snap-in carpet? I don't think the early cars used the cocoa mat but I could be wrong. I've seen a couple touring cars on-line with the short pile, fitted carpet and Gail Rodda has one in his 1909. If this is the case where would I go to have this carpet made? Any input would be greatly appreciated!

When I bought my 1910 Touring in 1946 it had a coca mat on the rear floor. I have reason to believe it is the original mat that came with the T. I still have that mat.

in Gail's book , it says they had " cut pile black carpet "
My dad's '09 , which he bought in 1953, had carpet , & he was the third owner .

I have never liked the cocoa mats that are currently being made. I can't believe someone doesn't have an original one we can see.

According to litterature, use of the cocoa mat in 1909-10 is correct.

But I'm may be wrog too, because another source said:


"1909-1910

Off-white rubber in front; wool carpet in rear of tourings. White rubber mat on rear of mother-in-law seat roadsters.

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#flor2

Sometimes not easy to find the accurate info. Hope that help as well

Bill, Here is a photo of an early Ford parts book that shows the rear tonneau carpet (Part number 3607) for the 1909-1910 touring. You can see by the shape that the wool carpet extends up the floorboard behind the gas tank. I found a company that sold imported black cut pile wool carpet, and cut and and edged the carpet for my 1909. I hope this helps. Russ Furstnow

I did the same as Russ, I remember finding documentation some where that at least on early cars the rear floor was carpet.

My 1909 kit of parts included a white rubber mat, I guess it must be a repro from sometime in the past. If does look quite nice and matches the white rubber mat at the front. Mind you I rather prefer the look of the stained and varnished wood floor.

I have an original early 1909 January engine #685 but very original, its had paint put on it in the early 1940's and this car has still got it original floor mat in the rear which is carpet with the press studs in the corners and to me it looks like a green sort of color in the carpet. If you want any more particulars email and I can help with information and photos.

Wow, thanks for all the input, especially the parts sheet and photos showing the actual carpet! So am I correct in assuming that only the 1909 and early '10's had carpet and then the cocoa mat was used? If so, does anyone know what the "cutoff" date would have been? Mine is a February of 1910.

Bill, I sent you a PM, Russ Furstnow

Thanks Russ! Did they cut it to size and band the edges too or did you do that?

Can I bring this thread back from the "depths" to ask a question as it pertains to a Tourabout? Would the factory-assembled Tourabouts have been furnished with a White Rubber Mat, -or would it have had a special sized Cocoa Mat (-i.e.: 30½"w X 21¾"l)?

I am the third owner of my car and being very original built March 10 1910 with I believe is the original coco mat.

From the MTFCA Encyclopedia and
Internet (Wool carpets are highly absorbent, and whilst this can be a good trait for removing humidity from the air, it’s not so good when it comes to spills or regular exposure to water, such as in or near a bathroom. Larger volumes of water can saturate wool fibres and over time can result in mildew forming, causing discolouration and an undesirable smell.)
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TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2024 1:39 pm

From the MTFCA Encyclopedia and
Internet (Wool carpets are highly absorbent, and whilst this can be a good trait for removing humidity from the air, it’s not so good when it comes to spills or regular exposure to water, such as in or near a bathroom. Larger volumes of water can saturate wool fibres and over time can result in mildew forming, causing discolouration and an undesirable smell.)
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mats 2.png

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floor mats.png

Frank, I apologize in advance but I am struggling to follow you on this. I see where you underlined the portion about a Wool Mat being used in closed cars, but are you addressing this thread from back in 2020 about Touring car rear mat, -or are you answering my question?

Original Smith wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:39 am

I have never liked the cocoa mats that are currently being made. I can't believe someone doesn't have an original one we can see.

Ok, so I have to ask....are original cocoa mats like unicorns??
Just asking, cuz I was told by the prior owner, family was 2nd owner since 1930, that the mat in mine is original. Not that I know how to authentic, but.... just curious about your comment and relative obscurity of original mats....

I like the appearance of the wool mat pictured above. What's with the snaps. I find it hard to believe Ford did that?

BRENT in 10-uh-C wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2024 3:49 pm

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2024 1:39 pm

From the MTFCA Encyclopedia and
Internet (Wool carpets are highly absorbent, and whilst this can be a good trait for removing humidity from the air, it’s not so good when it comes to spills or regular exposure to water, such as in or near a bathroom. Larger volumes of water can saturate wool fibres and over time can result in mildew forming, causing discolouration and an undesirable smell.)
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mats 2.png

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Closeups
floor mats.png

Frank, I apologize in advance but I am struggling to follow you on this. I see where you underlined the portion about a Wool Mat being used in closed cars, but are you addressing this thread from back in 2020 about Touring car rear mat, -or are you answering my question?

Sorry should have explained better.
The Encyclopedia states that coco mats were used in open cars & wool in closed cars. The picture that 1906jford provided didn't indicate if that was from a closed or open car. BUT given the wear pattern it looks like the binding for a wool carpet.

So coco for open cars & wool for closed cars.


A few coco mats from that era would be helpful, not just for a Model T, to see how how they were made then.

BRENT in 10-uh-C wrote: ↑

Wed May 29, 2024 11:40 am

Can I bring this thread back from the "depths" to ask a question as it pertains to a Tourabout? Would the factory-assembled Tourabouts have been furnished with a White Rubber Mat, -or would it have had a special sized Cocoa Mat (-i.e.: 30½"w X 21¾"l)?

My guess would be the Tourabout used the Roadster w/ Mother Law rear mat, p/n 4409 Factory # 1665, "Floor Mat, Rear Roadster, 30 3/8" x 30"

Both appear white rubber.

That 1909 tonneau carpet shows up as part 1606 in an early parts list, possibly 1908. It's listed on a separate page as "1606 Tonneau carpet" for 2.50.

Without question the earliest cars had a carpet in the back. I have worked on a few 1909 cars and the button snap posts are usually still in place on the floorboards. I have the factory blueprint for the carpet in my files somewhere but it doesnt have much detail. The one shown here is one of few remaining examples. Hope it can be studied in detail.

Why doesn't this answer the question on what mats where used where on what models?
https://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/F-H.htm#flor2
"Earliest Cars having carpet" is an ambiguous reference as not indicating year or model.
From the Model T Ford Club of America Encyclopedia (click on the image to enlarge it) or read the one below it.

We need to find out the real answer to this question. Someone who is able needs to go to the Benson Ford archives and pull the record of changes on this mat! It obviously evolved over the years, and we need to know. No guesses!

Since there is an example of a 1909 with the original rear carpet, certainly there must be examples of later T's with the original mats still. How about some of your 1913-1916 cars coming forward and showing us what you believe is original mats for your cars!

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2024 1:19 pm

I'm inclined to go with Bruce's information posted by Frank. But Larry's suggestion of fact-checking it with original sources to be sure is not a bad idea.

Steve, the problem with solely relying on Bruce's research is that based on my own first-hand experiences is when researching is done, we are always uncovering new facts that often contradicts what we thought we already knew as 'facts'. A great example of this is when you look at Dan's photos from above, it tends to make a compelling argument for using an off-white Rubber Mat in lieu of a Cocoa mat in the tonneau area of a Tourabout. Since the Tourabout and the Touring did not share the same size of floor area in the tonneau area, Ford would have needed to manufacture two different sizes of Cocoa Mats whereas the rubber Mat was already in production for the Runabout which was a direct fit for the Tourabout. Bruce never addressed the Tourabout mats.

Original Smith wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:51 pm

We need to find out the real answer to this question. Someone who is able needs to go to the Benson Ford archives and pull the record of changes on this mat! It obviously evolved over the years, and we need to know. No guesses!

Larry, unfortunately that is just not possible. Before COVID I generally spent 4 - 5 full weeks each year at the Benson Research Center researching Prints, EIs, M-Specs, Photos, and Foreman's Logs for my business. Linda (past curator) and Brian (Archive Mgr) knew me because of the visits, and I even looked up things for and sent them to Randall. I say this to explain that you (-or whomever) can go to the 'Benson Ford archives' if you like however you will be met with a locked door. The Henry Ford has not allocated funding for staff both during and in the post-pandemic era, ...and many of the volunteers that used to work there in the Research Center were students from a local college that were receiving college credits because of grant funding however the college(s) have not been given funding either, so they do not have the staff available any longer to open the doors. IMHO based on the length of time it has been closed, and with listening to the whispers from within, my guess is the archives will probably never be re-opened to the public again. So what is your next recommendation??

...my guess is the archives will probably never be re-opened to the public again.

Can you still buy copies of parts drawings online?

Check out Bruce's black book, and the article on the Rip Van Winkle. It shows the carpet in the rear of the car, and says it is rather thick wool, and is bound all around the edges. There must be other examples of cars from the early teens out there? How about some owners of these cars coming forward?

Original Smith wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 03, 2024 12:51 pm

We need to find out the real answer to this question. Someone who is able needs to go to the Benson Ford archives and pull the record of changes on this mat! It obviously evolved over the years, and we need to know. No guesses!

Where did "Bruce W. McCalley" get his information? If you doubt some of his research then why not all of it?
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2017/1 ... rch-center
"McCalley spent many hours in the Benson Ford Research Center in Dearborn, Michigan, unraveling the mysteries of the Model T’s 19-year production run."

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 04, 2024 2:05 pm

Where did "Bruce W. McCalley" get his information? If you doubt some of his research then why not all of it?
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2017/1 ... rch-center
"McCalley spent many hours in the Benson Ford Research Center in Dearborn, Michigan, unraveling the mysteries of the Model T’s 19-year production run."

Frank, wouldn't you agree there has only been one book ever written that was without errors, ...and with all due respect & recognition for what Mr. McCalley did, Bruce's book just is not that Book!!

Think about it, there is not any way that Bruce could have thoroughly researched nearly 20 years of production changes for our beloved Model-T. The Ford Model-A that was only produced for less than 4½ years has been in constant research ever since George DeAngeles went dumpster diving and saved all of the information that Ford had thrown away. This information for the Model-A was first compiled in book form in 1989 after about 20 years of research. Because new information has been continually found that corrected previous information, there subsequently has been 4 major revisions (-in 1994, 1997, 2011, & 2016) to that book, ...and there now has been enough new information gathered for yet a 5th revision.

Additionally, there have been WAY more of us including both national Model-A club's JSC members that have compiled and provided research, and we are still finding information on Engineer's drawings, Engineering notes, and Foreman's logs that contradict what the first Model-A Judging Standard had written, -so if a team of over 100 men have been spending nearly 50 years researching a Ford vehicle that was only produced for around 4 years, how likely is it that Bruce and his small(er) team could compile 5X as much information in that same amount of time and been able to get everything correct without any need for revisions??

Steve Jelf wrote: ↑

Tue Jun 04, 2024 1:39 pm

...my guess is the archives will probably never be re-opened to the public again.

Can you still buy copies of parts drawings online?

Yes.

You contact Benson Research via email, response is quick, have done it several times, and email reply will be with file that you can download on your computer to view the doc or print.

The Factory Number must be used, and that can be a dilemma on the 'wool' or 'carpet' discussion for the '09-'10.

Review of two different Ford Parts and Price Lists shows this:

April 1914 List: '09-'10 p/n 3607 is listed as "Tonneau (sic rear) carpet for Touring Car" 33 1/4" x 32 3/8" with Factory Number 1606A
Sept 1912 List: '09-'10 p/n 3676 is listed as Cocoa Mat 31" x 32" with Factory Number 1606A

Note the Factory Numbers are the same! So print may not show material, but perhaps other records.


If I knew the Factory Number for the Tonneau (rear) mat or carpet for the Tourabout body , would be happy to get this from the Benson Research, but can't find such number. The Tourabout rear seat cushions (L and R) have Factory Nos. 2289 and 2290, but can't find listing for the mat or carpet.

From the parts list for touring cars, there were four consecutive types of tonneau mats.

Wool carpet 1909-10
Coca mat 1911-17
Wool felt 1917-21
Rubber Mat 1923 -

An original 1915 from Illinois posted here some time ago might have a wool felt mat in the tonneau. It's in the picture. The 1917 Rip Van Winkle car definitely has a wool felt mat, described by Bruce as "thick" with binding stitches around the corners. Not sure what color.

Parts lists for 1912 still stock wool carpet for 1909-10 cars, while 1911-12 cars were cocoa mats. All replacement mats whether for 1909-10 or 1911 up were cocoa after 1912, probably once the stock of wool carpet was gone.

Cocoa mats appear in parts lists for very early 1917, replaced by wool felt by June 1917. Looks like the switch was made mid year.

We've seen it before - a progression of changes towards less expensive alternatives.

I see some research was done by others while I was doing the same. Images of the parts book pages are included for further verification
When the parts book doesn't specify a particular Model, it can not always be assumed that it will fit.
While the part books give specific part numbers for Model/years they also omit needed information to correctly answer the question "what was used where" Then again they are just another reference for potential error

From the 1910-11 parts list (see 1910-11 parts lists below)
The word "carpet" is used for part numbers 3606 for Touring, 3606 1/4 for Town Car, 3606 1/5 for Coupe
Cocoa mat part 3676 is noted for the 1909-10 Touring
Cocoa mat part 3754 is noted for the 1911 Touring From the 1918 parts list (see 1918 parts list below)
Tonneau mat part 3676B is noted as wool but there is no designation of Model, just a size 30" x 28"
Websters definition of Tonneau : a rear part or compartment of an automobile body, containing seats for passengers. From the 1927 parts list (see 1927 parts list below)
Rear floor rubber mat, part 3676C, is noted for years 1911-25 but does not mention a model or the size of the mat.

You contact Benson Research via email, response is quick, have done it several times, and email reply will be with file that you can download on your computer to view the doc or print.

Yes, that's what I did planning to make a new firewall. I'm glad that service is still available.

Just updated the chronology in my post above - cocoa mats from 1911 to mid 1917, wool felt to 1921 or 22, rubber afterwards, all for touring cars.

I think tourabouts were considered "open" cars in that they had no doors, and the rear seat was thought of as just a larger rumble seat, so white rubber mats, same as the front. Touring cars, while plenty open, had doors on the tonneau and were then considered to be semi-formal, hence the use of carpet or coaca fibre compared to the front seat rubber mat.