NOVICE QUESTION
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
-
Topic author - Posts: 584
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:25 pm
- First Name: Jim
- Last Name: Davis
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring. 1923/26 Open Express. 1920 depot hack
- Location: Tomball,Texas
- MTFCA Number: 49832
- MTFCI Number: 24686
- Board Member Since: 2017
NOVICE QUESTION
How much difference do the high flow aluminum intake manifolds that Langs and other vendors sell make in T engine performance ? They claim 60% more in take air flow. and then the follow up question. if You have 60% more intake air do You need to go to a larger or dual exhaust system. perhaps larger valves. to realize a noticeable improvement.
-
- Posts: 1057
- Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 1:20 pm
- First Name: Joe
- Last Name: Bell
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 24 Fordor
- Location: Tiffin Ohio
- MTFCI Number: 24066
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Mike Bender did dyno testing years ago The intake made no different on HP, bigger intake valves did, bigger cam also, but yet when you add a Model A or B intake and exhaust with larger carb it makes a big difference?
-
- Posts: 5339
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:09 am
- First Name: Henry
- Last Name: Lee
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Many
- Location: South Pittsburg, TN
- MTFCA Number: 479
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Yes Joe Bell and Mike Bender, I have found the same results from trial and error too. High compression heads do very well to up the performance with the other upgrades.
Hank
Hank
-
- Posts: 584
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am
- First Name: Bruce
- Last Name: Compton
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Coupe, 1925 Coupe
- Location: Kemptville
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
I agree: With a stock engine a high volume intake is almost a step in the wrong direction with built in restrictions at both ends of the intake. If you go to bigger valves, an aftermarket carb capable of flowing more CFM, and a better exhaust system the HV intake would help. As Hank just said, the single best thing to gain power is a high compression head and it gets even better if you add a better carb like a Stromberg OF or Wheeler Schebler FAX8.
-
- Posts: 584
- Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:23 am
- First Name: Bruce
- Last Name: Compton
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1921 Coupe, 1925 Coupe
- Location: Kemptville
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
More thoughts: I've been messin' with old cars for over 50 years and by far the most common mistake I see a lot of guys make is overcarburetion. You see it from Model Ts to modern V-8's. Back in the day it was quite common to see three holley 94's or Stromberg 97's on a 239 cu.in. flathead that was otherwise stock and later the same trend on a small block stock Chevy, or sometimes maybe even two 750 CFM four barrels on a stock 302 Ford. Bragging rights are OK, but it's somewhat similar to putting a 600 CFM Holley on a lawnmower and claiming that the engine runs really well and even gets good mileage.....yeah right. Any engine is basically an air pump that can handle only a certain amount of flow both in and out so increasing the flow capability of only one section of the flow just upsets the rest. It's pretty common knowledge that a Stromberg OF or a Wheeler-Schebler FAX8 will really wake-up a stock T and the venturi size on either one is smaller than a Holley straight through. The difference is efficient fuel atomization and the capability of automatically adjusting the mix to suit the load and speed. The result is more power, using less fuel, and creating a lot less carbon on the plugs and in the cylinders.
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Save your money.
Buy a good carburetor, a Prius head and have your coils rebuilt.
Any one of them will do more good than a high flow manifold.
You can only run so much air through a carburetor.
And the valves.
Etc.
There are a dozen great carburetors that will wake up a T.
They all have positives and negatives.
Start with an OF, go from there.
My favorites: Stromberg OF
U and J
Zenith S4BF
Rayfield UF
Wheeler-Schebler
Lots more.
They made over 200 accessory carbs for Ts. A lot of them are great, others not so much.
The air valve types tend to run very well but are fussy.
Winfield and Miller master are great but not for every day driving.
It's a life long study.
Buy a good carburetor, a Prius head and have your coils rebuilt.
Any one of them will do more good than a high flow manifold.
You can only run so much air through a carburetor.
And the valves.
Etc.
There are a dozen great carburetors that will wake up a T.
They all have positives and negatives.
Start with an OF, go from there.
My favorites: Stromberg OF
U and J
Zenith S4BF
Rayfield UF
Wheeler-Schebler
Lots more.
They made over 200 accessory carbs for Ts. A lot of them are great, others not so much.
The air valve types tend to run very well but are fussy.
Winfield and Miller master are great but not for every day driving.
It's a life long study.
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Damn auto correct!!!
Not a Prius head, a PRUS head!!!!!!!
Not a Prius head, a PRUS head!!!!!!!
-
- Posts: 2293
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:25 pm
- First Name: George
- Last Name: House
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘10 Maxwell AA, ‘11Hupp Model 20, Two 1914 Ford runabouts, 19 centerdoor, 25 C Cab,26 roadster
- Location: Northern Caldwell County TX
- MTFCA Number: 115
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Oh heck uncle Stan !! I just returned from the local Toyota house and bought me a $1800 Prius head ! Was going to ask- on this Forum- who makes adapter plates for Model T...
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
-
- Posts: 145
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:22 pm
- First Name: Sean
- Last Name: Butler
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1911 Touring
- Location: Huntington Beach, CA
- MTFCA Number: 31557
-
- Posts: 1055
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
- Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
- MTFCA Number: 464
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
- Contact:
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
I was thinking the same thing about this Prius OHV conversion... will it make it smoother and peppy like a Detroit Electric?
-
- Posts: 2789
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:26 pm
- First Name: Dallas
- Last Name: Landers
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 26 Rpu, 23 TT, 24 coupe,
- Location: N.E. Indiana
- MTFCA Number: 49995
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
You had me going on 1st read Stan. Kevin Prius! Wait till I see him again. I bet he could make an adapter plate. He can make anything.
-
- Posts: 914
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:32 am
- First Name: Ignacio
- Last Name: Valdes
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1924 Touring
- Location: Houston, Tx
- MTFCA Number: 50406
- Board Member Since: 2016
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
Funny on the PRUS head but here actually is an electric T: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/from-t-to-ev
-
- Posts: 250
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:55 pm
- First Name: Pat
- Last Name: Kelly
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 23 Speedster, 25 TT, 26 Roadster, 27 Tudor
- Location: Noxon MT
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
I thought I'd try a downdraft set up for my 27 Tudor. I used a Antique Auto Ranch 300 Race cam, chevy valves, Prus head 80 over pistons and every engine and trans part is balanced. The carb is a Winfield RS. The intake manifold is one of the simi finished parts and is larger that the stock manifold. The exhaust manifold is stock but the pipe is 2". I also put a large oiler to the front. It pulls mountain grades as I had hoped but is a little temperamental on the idle and when cold. Sense we have guys with lots of experience on this thread anyone have any ideas on the low end issue?
-
- Posts: 4359
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Tomaso
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
- Location: Longbranch, WA
- MTFCA Number: 14972
- MTFCI Number: 15411
- Board Member Since: 2001
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
I run a SRBD on my RAJO BB and with the humidity here on the coast, I had to run a "heat" pipe into the throat of mine. The SR's seem to be a bit finicky anyway !
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
George!! A Prius is a three cylinder isn't it???
Pretty hard to match that up to a T.
Pretty hard to match that up to a T.
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
The explanation is that the intake valve does not close completely before there is a pulse from the piston starting to rise. So there is a slight flow return in the intake charge. A larger manifold takes longer to reverse the flow or start it again when the valve opens again -- depending on how you look at it. With a large intake it takes some time for the charge to flow into the cylinder as the piston is coming down. With a smaller intake the charge flows more quickly. (Or so the engineers say) As with everything else there are compromises between flow and volume of charge.
Remember that there is no such thing as vacuum in carburetion. There is pressure differential. The charge is moved into the cylinder by the air pressure on the out side of the carburetor being higher than the air pressure on the inside of the cylinder. The intake valve opens to ALLOW the charge to be moved into the cylinder by the outside air pressure. The fewer the cylinders the more times the charge stops and starts flowing in the intake manifold.
If you believe what their theory is -- as I do -- at slower engine speeds the charge is the smaller manifold is pressurized more quickly by the outside air pressure and moves the charge into the cylinder more quickly because of that quicker pressure recharge.
Makes sense to me. However, some Australian high school textbook called it vacuum and I got called every name you can think of a few years ago for trying to explain how carburetors work so I may be wrong. After about six weeks I gave up and vowed I would never post any theoretical engineering hypothesis again. Or research based information.
Your mileage may vary, no warrantee expressed or implied, information obtain for sources deemed reliable but is subject to correction, all items must be pair for at the end of the auction, all complaints are handled by Miss Helen Waite so if you wish to complain or argue please go to Hellen Wait. I'm headed to the shop.
Remember that there is no such thing as vacuum in carburetion. There is pressure differential. The charge is moved into the cylinder by the air pressure on the out side of the carburetor being higher than the air pressure on the inside of the cylinder. The intake valve opens to ALLOW the charge to be moved into the cylinder by the outside air pressure. The fewer the cylinders the more times the charge stops and starts flowing in the intake manifold.
If you believe what their theory is -- as I do -- at slower engine speeds the charge is the smaller manifold is pressurized more quickly by the outside air pressure and moves the charge into the cylinder more quickly because of that quicker pressure recharge.
Makes sense to me. However, some Australian high school textbook called it vacuum and I got called every name you can think of a few years ago for trying to explain how carburetors work so I may be wrong. After about six weeks I gave up and vowed I would never post any theoretical engineering hypothesis again. Or research based information.
Your mileage may vary, no warrantee expressed or implied, information obtain for sources deemed reliable but is subject to correction, all items must be pair for at the end of the auction, all complaints are handled by Miss Helen Waite so if you wish to complain or argue please go to Hellen Wait. I'm headed to the shop.
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
You have to remember that the charge is sitting in the intake waiting for three of the four strokes of the engine. It only moves when the valve opens and the intake stroke occurs. During compression, ignition and exhaust the charge in the manifold is (at least theoretically) static.
-
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 5:42 pm
- First Name: Stan
- Last Name: Howe
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 2
- Location: Helena, MT
- MTFCA Number: 19133
- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
For the original poster, here is a link to the accessory carburetor page on my web site. It is long out of date, I'm added another 20 or so since I did this about ten years ago, sold some of these and some others, etc.
But there were over 200 carbs for Model Ts that were going to solve every problem with how they started, ran, economy, power, ease of operation -- on and on. Some were very good, some not so much.
But there were over 200 carbs for Model Ts that were going to solve every problem with how they started, ran, economy, power, ease of operation -- on and on. Some were very good, some not so much.
-
- Posts: 1055
- Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:06 pm
- First Name: Susanne
- Last Name: Rohner
- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Late '15 touring, "Angel".
- Location: Valfabbrica, (central) Italy
- MTFCA Number: 464
- MTFCA Life Member: YES
- Board Member Since: 1999
- Contact:
Re: NOVICE QUESTION
The Cat's Pajamas is a pair of Winfield AA (or a Winfield BB) fed into whatever, with Fordson-sized valves and a .300 cam 7° advanced... THEN you can get a higher flow or overhead valve set-up... The motor has to breathe, otherwise you won't get the oompha you think you should.
The T engine is, compared to modern iron, BIG, you just need to figure out why they can get all them ponies out of a 200 ci Engine nowadays and replicate the tech (without violating the "nothing post-27" rule) and squeezze HP out of that motor, It CAN be done... remember Vic Sala... but you have to play by the rules.
The T engine is, compared to modern iron, BIG, you just need to figure out why they can get all them ponies out of a 200 ci Engine nowadays and replicate the tech (without violating the "nothing post-27" rule) and squeezze HP out of that motor, It CAN be done... remember Vic Sala... but you have to play by the rules.