Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
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Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
A few months ago I visited a friend, Steve. We got talking about old cars and he mentioned that he had a photo of one that he'd be interested to know more about.
Just today I had the chance to visit him again, and obtain a copy of said photo.
Below you'll see what that photo was of - I make it as a 26/27 T, but of course I'm no expert and no doubt someone will be able to shed further light on that.
I also include an image of the back of the photo which appears to have 'H97' stamped/written on it. Additionally, and very indistinctly, the paper has 'Velox' printed diagonally across the back. From what I can glean the latter confirms the date of the photograph as circa 1940's-1950's, but what the 'H97' refers to is a little more murky. Most likely it's a photographer's or developer's code, but so far I've not found anything to pin it down further.
In any event how Steve came about the photo has an air of intrigue, and it would be nice to be able to solve the mystery it currently presents....
The story goes that the photo was inside a silver case that belonged to Steve's father (photo of case included below). Inside the case is an inscription "Carol from Byrne 1945", and outside the case is a stylised 'K W', which are his father's intitials. In fact his father's name was Karol, and he is believed to have been in the Polish parachute regiment in late 1944 or early 1945. The regiment was based in Scotland, but further to the story Steve believes Karol spent some time in the U.S. on a training regime.
From what I've been able to glean most of the U.S. parachute training around this time took place in the south. Whether this is where Karol was sent isn't certain, but given the info on the photographic paper, and that it's a LHD T, it seems likely that the photograph, and possibly the silver case, are from his time in the U.S. during WW2.
I, of course, have been winding Steve up, suggesting that 'Byrne' could have been Karol's girlfriend of the time, and that he (Steve) may have sibling(s) he's not aware of ! However, while that's possible, to be more serious I supposed it's more probable that when he went to the U.S. Karol and some mates could have bought or borrowed the T and gone on a few outings when they had some leave, and 'Byrne' could be a (male) comrade - 'Byrne' is meant to be a boy's name.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone could shed some light on what you see? Perhaps the trees in the photo may be unique to a certain place, or someone might recognise what looks like a frame at the lower right behind the foreground tree?
The main photograph:
Back of photo:
Outside of silver case:
Inside of case:
Just today I had the chance to visit him again, and obtain a copy of said photo.
Below you'll see what that photo was of - I make it as a 26/27 T, but of course I'm no expert and no doubt someone will be able to shed further light on that.
I also include an image of the back of the photo which appears to have 'H97' stamped/written on it. Additionally, and very indistinctly, the paper has 'Velox' printed diagonally across the back. From what I can glean the latter confirms the date of the photograph as circa 1940's-1950's, but what the 'H97' refers to is a little more murky. Most likely it's a photographer's or developer's code, but so far I've not found anything to pin it down further.
In any event how Steve came about the photo has an air of intrigue, and it would be nice to be able to solve the mystery it currently presents....
The story goes that the photo was inside a silver case that belonged to Steve's father (photo of case included below). Inside the case is an inscription "Carol from Byrne 1945", and outside the case is a stylised 'K W', which are his father's intitials. In fact his father's name was Karol, and he is believed to have been in the Polish parachute regiment in late 1944 or early 1945. The regiment was based in Scotland, but further to the story Steve believes Karol spent some time in the U.S. on a training regime.
From what I've been able to glean most of the U.S. parachute training around this time took place in the south. Whether this is where Karol was sent isn't certain, but given the info on the photographic paper, and that it's a LHD T, it seems likely that the photograph, and possibly the silver case, are from his time in the U.S. during WW2.
I, of course, have been winding Steve up, suggesting that 'Byrne' could have been Karol's girlfriend of the time, and that he (Steve) may have sibling(s) he's not aware of ! However, while that's possible, to be more serious I supposed it's more probable that when he went to the U.S. Karol and some mates could have bought or borrowed the T and gone on a few outings when they had some leave, and 'Byrne' could be a (male) comrade - 'Byrne' is meant to be a boy's name.
Anyway, I wonder if anyone could shed some light on what you see? Perhaps the trees in the photo may be unique to a certain place, or someone might recognise what looks like a frame at the lower right behind the foreground tree?
The main photograph:
Back of photo:
Outside of silver case:
Inside of case:
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
I believe the item in the right foreground is a steel folding chair.
Tom Miller
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Mmm! don't know about that, the steel frame seems to be on the wrong side of the panels and I'm not seeing any legs.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
It's more likely to be a cantilever chair, and the legs are hidden by the tree, and off the edge of the photo.
It might be autumn? are those leaves on the ground?
Is the case the right size to hold 20 cigarettes?
It might be autumn? are those leaves on the ground?
Is the case the right size to hold 20 cigarettes?
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Ahhhh...a wartime fling. Had a few of those myself. That’s definitely a New and Improved Ford touring. The trees appear consistent with Ft. Benning - home of the Airborne. However they were larger when I went through back in ‘72.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Early 1926 touring (no headlight bar).
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
I agree with Steve Jelf.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Too bad we can't ask the person standing in the distance (above the rear seat of the car!)... There's a building, looks like an old "chow hall" to the right, and something to the left. THe number on the back is likely the photographer's file number, so he could find the negatives in his files and make prints.
My vote is also with Steve & Co... '26 touring. Improved but before the headlight bar, nickel radiator shell, wood wheels, etc. Love the "2 tone" paint job...
The framework is (I'm guessing) a chair of some sort... it looks big because of the depth of field of the older cameras. Not "folding" (I have a few WW2 era folding chairs that we still use for company), thelegs are missing, or someone intended to hang it from the tree?
My vote is also with Steve & Co... '26 touring. Improved but before the headlight bar, nickel radiator shell, wood wheels, etc. Love the "2 tone" paint job...
The framework is (I'm guessing) a chair of some sort... it looks big because of the depth of field of the older cameras. Not "folding" (I have a few WW2 era folding chairs that we still use for company), thelegs are missing, or someone intended to hang it from the tree?
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
To me it looks like a body of water ( pond or river) in the background with a dock on the right. Someone with one of those amazing photo softwares might be able to tweak it into view.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Was able to ID the Cigarette case but the ad in GUMTREE is no longer available
Han-Bro 1940s vintage Cigarette Case sold for £12.00 GBP*
Description
This engine turned cigarette case is stamped inside Han-Bro Made in England. There is a gilt interior and to one side of the case is a gold coloured elastic retainer. The front of the outer casing has a small cartouche in the centre which is blank and (ready for engraving) there are some very light dents, but otherwise the item is in extremely good condition. Size 5.5 inches x 3 inches.
Han-Bro 1940s vintage Cigarette Case sold for £12.00 GBP*
Description
This engine turned cigarette case is stamped inside Han-Bro Made in England. There is a gilt interior and to one side of the case is a gold coloured elastic retainer. The front of the outer casing has a small cartouche in the centre which is blank and (ready for engraving) there are some very light dents, but otherwise the item is in extremely good condition. Size 5.5 inches x 3 inches.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
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Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
One MTFCA member is a Kodak Historian may be able to explain the H code
Found this info foe VELOX
Four Common Kodak Brandings
* If the back of a photo has the printing 'Velox,' the photo dates circa 1940s-50s.
* If the back of the photo has the three line printing 'Kodak/Velox/Paper,' the photo dates circa 1950s-60s.
* The printing 'A Kodak Paper' was commonly used in the 1960s and early 1970s.
* The thee lined printing "THIS PAPER / MANUFACTURED / BY KODAK" was commonly used in the 1970s-80s. If you have a photo that is advertised as being from 1979, the presence of this branding doesn't prove the specific year of 1979 but is consistent with the date.
Found this info foe VELOX
Four Common Kodak Brandings
* If the back of a photo has the printing 'Velox,' the photo dates circa 1940s-50s.
* If the back of the photo has the three line printing 'Kodak/Velox/Paper,' the photo dates circa 1950s-60s.
* The printing 'A Kodak Paper' was commonly used in the 1960s and early 1970s.
* The thee lined printing "THIS PAPER / MANUFACTURED / BY KODAK" was commonly used in the 1970s-80s. If you have a photo that is advertised as being from 1979, the presence of this branding doesn't prove the specific year of 1979 but is consistent with the date.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
I think the chair object is actually a faded NO Parking sign
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Wow, thanks for all the input everyone!
Thomas, Frank, Jim, I agree it looks like a chair, but it seems to be floating in space - which does make it look a little incongruent to the rest of the photo. I think at this stage it's not likely to add much more to solving the puzzle? Unless perhaps someone could ID it as local to a region - or could it be a particular services (eg Army) item?
Jim, yes a cigarette case I think, Frank seems to have found out some good information on that (I need a thumbs up icon).
George, great to hear it looks like it could be Ft Benning, thank you. Is there a particular area there that you think it could be from?
Steve & John, appreciate the info, thanks. That was my initial thought but I'm constantly amazed at the detail that people seem to pick up on out of a picture - I expect you noticed it too but it seems to me the steering wheel is on front to back. Perhaps that was the then equivalent of today's 'sports wheel', but I guess by the time the picture was taken the car would have been ~19 years old so the wheel could have been on and off a few times.
Susanne, good spotting on the person, but I'm just not completely sure it is someone!? It's very difficult to tell because it also looks to be centre of the foliage around that could make it the trunk of a tree. I've zoomed in on it numerous times and just haven't been able to reach a conclusion. Unfortunately the original photo (which is what this image is directly from) isn't really any clearer.
Yes, it's certainly something man-made to the right and upper; a 'chow-hall' sounds interesting and I guess could fit in with George's thoughts on location. The 'chair' continues to be a puzzle, I don't think the angles are right for it to be hanging from the tree?
Jim, I don't think it's a lake - it looks to be too high for that? My take on it is that there's a road/track behind the car that leads from right to left of the picture, and I suspect the car was turned left off that track. Given the 'whiteout' condition (which perhaps makes it a look a little lake-like) I wondered if it could be early morning, with a mist of some sort clinging to the ground? There's not much shadow angle visible so it's possibly taken at either end of the day, or mid-day, the mist theory would fit in with early morning (and mist could disperse any sunlight). Incidentally you're already looking at what some 'amazing software' has done Unfortunately in this case the image I got was fairly much as good as the original so there wasn't a lot one could do with it to further enhance. It did however show up the watermark on the back of the photograph from which I was able to ID the paper - this wasn't especially visible to the native eye.
Frank, that's a jackpot on the case I think - well done! If it's english-made then I guess it could have been given to Karol from another member of his regiment and may even not be (directly) related to the photograph, unless they were available in the U.S. at the time? It's curious that his initials are perfectly engraved on the front, but the internal inscription is somewhat amateurly done. I suppose it's possible the initials could have been done at a later time - quite probably at the time Karol received the case there was no certainty of life beyond the next short while and there was no time for such delicate work.
I agree re the paper, it looks as if you found the same site I did when I researched it. There was some interesting associated data on photographers stamps but the impression I got was that the stamps were more distinctive (ie. sufficient to identify the photographer) than what this appears to be. The 'H9' looks to be stamped, so could be a group number, or paper batch number of some sort (?), the '7' is written so perhaps the developer put that in for some reason - with any luck your Kodak historian might be able to help out with this.
Randy - if it was then it didn't work very well!
Jim, you're right regarding the season I think, it was my thought too. I looked to see when you'd expect leaves to fall and be so thick in the U.S. southern states and from what I could make out it seemed to me you might see something like this very late in the year? Is this correct? If so then the photo could well be late 1944, fitting in with the assumption that he went for training prior to the end of WW2, although I suppose it's always possible it could be a year later - unfortunately Steve's unaware of anything more that could pinpoint this (although he's asked for his father's service records, which are taking some time to arrive).
Anyway once again thanks for your thoughts and input - I'll call Steve shortly and let him know what you've come up
Thomas, Frank, Jim, I agree it looks like a chair, but it seems to be floating in space - which does make it look a little incongruent to the rest of the photo. I think at this stage it's not likely to add much more to solving the puzzle? Unless perhaps someone could ID it as local to a region - or could it be a particular services (eg Army) item?
Jim, yes a cigarette case I think, Frank seems to have found out some good information on that (I need a thumbs up icon).
George, great to hear it looks like it could be Ft Benning, thank you. Is there a particular area there that you think it could be from?
Steve & John, appreciate the info, thanks. That was my initial thought but I'm constantly amazed at the detail that people seem to pick up on out of a picture - I expect you noticed it too but it seems to me the steering wheel is on front to back. Perhaps that was the then equivalent of today's 'sports wheel', but I guess by the time the picture was taken the car would have been ~19 years old so the wheel could have been on and off a few times.
Susanne, good spotting on the person, but I'm just not completely sure it is someone!? It's very difficult to tell because it also looks to be centre of the foliage around that could make it the trunk of a tree. I've zoomed in on it numerous times and just haven't been able to reach a conclusion. Unfortunately the original photo (which is what this image is directly from) isn't really any clearer.
Yes, it's certainly something man-made to the right and upper; a 'chow-hall' sounds interesting and I guess could fit in with George's thoughts on location. The 'chair' continues to be a puzzle, I don't think the angles are right for it to be hanging from the tree?
Jim, I don't think it's a lake - it looks to be too high for that? My take on it is that there's a road/track behind the car that leads from right to left of the picture, and I suspect the car was turned left off that track. Given the 'whiteout' condition (which perhaps makes it a look a little lake-like) I wondered if it could be early morning, with a mist of some sort clinging to the ground? There's not much shadow angle visible so it's possibly taken at either end of the day, or mid-day, the mist theory would fit in with early morning (and mist could disperse any sunlight). Incidentally you're already looking at what some 'amazing software' has done Unfortunately in this case the image I got was fairly much as good as the original so there wasn't a lot one could do with it to further enhance. It did however show up the watermark on the back of the photograph from which I was able to ID the paper - this wasn't especially visible to the native eye.
Frank, that's a jackpot on the case I think - well done! If it's english-made then I guess it could have been given to Karol from another member of his regiment and may even not be (directly) related to the photograph, unless they were available in the U.S. at the time? It's curious that his initials are perfectly engraved on the front, but the internal inscription is somewhat amateurly done. I suppose it's possible the initials could have been done at a later time - quite probably at the time Karol received the case there was no certainty of life beyond the next short while and there was no time for such delicate work.
I agree re the paper, it looks as if you found the same site I did when I researched it. There was some interesting associated data on photographers stamps but the impression I got was that the stamps were more distinctive (ie. sufficient to identify the photographer) than what this appears to be. The 'H9' looks to be stamped, so could be a group number, or paper batch number of some sort (?), the '7' is written so perhaps the developer put that in for some reason - with any luck your Kodak historian might be able to help out with this.
Randy - if it was then it didn't work very well!
Jim, you're right regarding the season I think, it was my thought too. I looked to see when you'd expect leaves to fall and be so thick in the U.S. southern states and from what I could make out it seemed to me you might see something like this very late in the year? Is this correct? If so then the photo could well be late 1944, fitting in with the assumption that he went for training prior to the end of WW2, although I suppose it's always possible it could be a year later - unfortunately Steve's unaware of anything more that could pinpoint this (although he's asked for his father's service records, which are taking some time to arrive).
Anyway once again thanks for your thoughts and input - I'll call Steve shortly and let him know what you've come up
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Re the chair, we have stacking tubular steel chairs in Australia. The tube steel frame is one continuous piece. From the seat sides the legs go down to the ground the ground. Then they bend inwards, before heading to the back. At the back they turn to meet across the rear. This footprint of the base allows the base to pass between the legs of the next chair to be stacked. You can go 10 high before the stack will crash forward. In the photo you cannot see the front legs or the base among the leaves.
Allan from down under.
Allan from down under.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
I'd say there is a lake in the background as the trees seem to end at the water's edge. Also, the leaves on the ground appear to be Oak.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Looking over the right front fender of the T, in what looks to be down hill in the distance, is what could be a 30 A or Chevy. with something on the right running board and fender, maybe a.tent. The A could be a roadster with the windshield folded. That all could be wrong, but in any case it looks like a road coming up a hill. The thing at the near right looks like a stacking chair as some have said. I think the lake idea may be correct.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
is the steering wheel upside down?
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Allan, do you think the chairs you mention could be as old as 1940? I know that's what the thing looks like, but I suppose I thought they'd be more wooden legs and canvas seats etc at that time.
Tim, I still can't 'see' the lake, but I'll have another look in the morning! Thanks for the info on the leaves, I expect that could help.
Kevin, I agree there's something man-made on the horizon near the RH guard of the T, but I'm not sure if it's even a vehicle? Actually, if I zoom in on it the thing it most looks like to is a single-person hovercraft with a crazy viking driving it and brandishing an axe in his or her right hand!
Don, yes, it sure seems that way.
Tim, I still can't 'see' the lake, but I'll have another look in the morning! Thanks for the info on the leaves, I expect that could help.
Kevin, I agree there's something man-made on the horizon near the RH guard of the T, but I'm not sure if it's even a vehicle? Actually, if I zoom in on it the thing it most looks like to is a single-person hovercraft with a crazy viking driving it and brandishing an axe in his or her right hand!
Don, yes, it sure seems that way.
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Some more info has come to light
This is turning out to be quite an international trip ... Steve sent me some more info today that he'd got from his sister in the U.K.
"It appears that Dad enlisted into the Polish land forces in 1944,and was in the 1st armoured division.. we got this off his cap badge and sleeve badges... later he was wounded and sent to rehabilitation centers in Torquay, Witley camp Godalming Surrey and later to a camp in Perth and then to Inverary Scotland... after the war he was with the PRC (Polish Resettlement Corps) until he was discharged in October 1947, when he probably went to Manchester..
Before 1944 we think he was in the American paratroopers but this is only from what he told me..."
I bolded the bit about being a paratrooper, if this is correct then I guess it means the photo of the T could have been earlier than originally thought (1942/3?), and it would tie in somewhat with George's comment on Ft Benning. If he was in the U.S. for a while then perhaps the T was a communal car a few servicemen put some money together to buy? Maybe the cigarette case was payment for his share when he left for the U.K.(I presume a T wasn't worth a lot by then), potentially it was his first car and why he kept a photo of it all this time?
Just to add a little more - Steve tells me his father was in Belgium at the beginning of WW2, and that he was 16 at the time. Obviously he was lucky he wasn't in Poland, but it seems he made his way over to the U.S. at some point - possibly by the time he was 18 in 1941. I guess there are lists of U.S. servicemen that he might show up on, so we might have to look into that. Unfortunately the family don't have a lot of information prior to this time - understandable given what happened to Poland at the time, and subsequently...
"It appears that Dad enlisted into the Polish land forces in 1944,and was in the 1st armoured division.. we got this off his cap badge and sleeve badges... later he was wounded and sent to rehabilitation centers in Torquay, Witley camp Godalming Surrey and later to a camp in Perth and then to Inverary Scotland... after the war he was with the PRC (Polish Resettlement Corps) until he was discharged in October 1947, when he probably went to Manchester..
Before 1944 we think he was in the American paratroopers but this is only from what he told me..."
I bolded the bit about being a paratrooper, if this is correct then I guess it means the photo of the T could have been earlier than originally thought (1942/3?), and it would tie in somewhat with George's comment on Ft Benning. If he was in the U.S. for a while then perhaps the T was a communal car a few servicemen put some money together to buy? Maybe the cigarette case was payment for his share when he left for the U.K.(I presume a T wasn't worth a lot by then), potentially it was his first car and why he kept a photo of it all this time?
Just to add a little more - Steve tells me his father was in Belgium at the beginning of WW2, and that he was 16 at the time. Obviously he was lucky he wasn't in Poland, but it seems he made his way over to the U.S. at some point - possibly by the time he was 18 in 1941. I guess there are lists of U.S. servicemen that he might show up on, so we might have to look into that. Unfortunately the family don't have a lot of information prior to this time - understandable given what happened to Poland at the time, and subsequently...
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
The cantilever chair was invented in 1925
Could do better with a full name of Steve's Dad
But try these sites
War Office: Army Records Centre (Polish Section): Records concerning Polish Forces and Polish Resettlement Corps http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... s/r/C14519
Search all archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Could do better with a full name of Steve's Dad
But try these sites
War Office: Army Records Centre (Polish Section): Records concerning Polish Forces and Polish Resettlement Corps http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.u ... s/r/C14519
Search all archives
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Some of the trees look like Birch trees by the white bark - what kind? Picture compares to a Silver Birch popular in Europe. Checking current status of trees at Ft. Benning https://www.benning.army.mil/garrison/d ... Trees.html no Birch trees now. But that doesn't mean it couldn't be there
Info on the Polish 1st Armoured Division (Stationed in Scotland) was formed as part of the Polish I Corps under Wladyslaw Sikorski, which guarded approximately 200 kilometres of British coast in 1940-1941. The commander of the Division, General Stanislaw Maczek, was Poland’s premier mechanized commander, and many of his subordinate officers from the unit he commanded in 1939, the 10th Mechanized Brigade, had made their way to Britain with him. They were organized on the British Armoured Division model, equipped with British uniforms, weapons and tanks. They were initially equipped and trained on Crusader tanks but in late 1943 and early 1944 these were replaced with Sherman tanks and Cromwell tanks. They then participated in war games together with the 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division. So this may explain the return to Scotland.
Info on the Polish 1st Armoured Division (Stationed in Scotland) was formed as part of the Polish I Corps under Wladyslaw Sikorski, which guarded approximately 200 kilometres of British coast in 1940-1941. The commander of the Division, General Stanislaw Maczek, was Poland’s premier mechanized commander, and many of his subordinate officers from the unit he commanded in 1939, the 10th Mechanized Brigade, had made their way to Britain with him. They were organized on the British Armoured Division model, equipped with British uniforms, weapons and tanks. They were initially equipped and trained on Crusader tanks but in late 1943 and early 1944 these were replaced with Sherman tanks and Cromwell tanks. They then participated in war games together with the 4th Canadian (Armoured) Division. So this may explain the return to Scotland.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Getting a bit carried away with this but the trail never ends
This site indicates where the 1st Polish Armoured Division sections were stationed in Scotland. There is a distinction between 1st Armd Car Regt (Dalkeith) and 1st Armd Regt (Duns area)
https://www.polishforcesinbritain.info/ ... htm#Loc_T2
This google search hits upon lots of stuff for your friend to follow up on chose the CAR because of the Car
WWII Polish troops in Dalkeith Scotland
like https://polishforums.com/genealogy/rela ... czek-7733/
Labeled as the 1st Armour regiment need to confirm by the barets they are wearing
This site indicates where the 1st Polish Armoured Division sections were stationed in Scotland. There is a distinction between 1st Armd Car Regt (Dalkeith) and 1st Armd Regt (Duns area)
https://www.polishforcesinbritain.info/ ... htm#Loc_T2
This google search hits upon lots of stuff for your friend to follow up on chose the CAR because of the Car
WWII Polish troops in Dalkeith Scotland
like https://polishforums.com/genealogy/rela ... czek-7733/
Labeled as the 1st Armour regiment need to confirm by the barets they are wearing
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Frank, you're right the trail can seem to go on forever! Thanks for spending your time on this - Steve has requested his father's U.K. service records, but due to recent events he hasn't rec'd that data yet.
It's probably more the mystery around the Model T photograph, and Karol's time in the U.S. that is of particular interest here, and for Steve. I had a look last night at an enlistment list for U.S. servicemen and although his Dad's name didn't come up exactly I did find someone close, however I don't think it's him. It's a little unclear but it may be that the (U.S.) lists I've seen were for U.S. citizens only - although the 'close' person's 'nativity' was listed as German!
I note that, apparently, 'Karol' translates to 'Charles' in english. Whether he was ever called Charles (or derivative), 'Karl', or 'Karol' in the services is unknown, but I've tried all three when looking him up. I do have his surname, clearly, and if anyone had any specific detail I think Steve would be happy for me to pass that on in email.
Birch trees - yes, I wondered about that because I have some and they do look very similar (lack of branches at lower trunk, silver/white bark), but the leaves in the photograph don't look quite right. Tim suggested oak leaves, I suppose there could be an oak tree behind the photographer that we can't see but could have dropped its load in the foreground given the right breeze. Anyway it'd be interesting to see what you come up with - do you think it reasonable that you see this amount of leaves on the ground around Georgia in say Nov/Dec?
The other thing I wondered about was the number plate (or whatever's going on at the LH rear of the T). I know very little about U.S. plates of the time but could there be enough of its shape/size to give an idea of what state it could be from? Or were they all the same?
It's probably more the mystery around the Model T photograph, and Karol's time in the U.S. that is of particular interest here, and for Steve. I had a look last night at an enlistment list for U.S. servicemen and although his Dad's name didn't come up exactly I did find someone close, however I don't think it's him. It's a little unclear but it may be that the (U.S.) lists I've seen were for U.S. citizens only - although the 'close' person's 'nativity' was listed as German!
I note that, apparently, 'Karol' translates to 'Charles' in english. Whether he was ever called Charles (or derivative), 'Karl', or 'Karol' in the services is unknown, but I've tried all three when looking him up. I do have his surname, clearly, and if anyone had any specific detail I think Steve would be happy for me to pass that on in email.
Birch trees - yes, I wondered about that because I have some and they do look very similar (lack of branches at lower trunk, silver/white bark), but the leaves in the photograph don't look quite right. Tim suggested oak leaves, I suppose there could be an oak tree behind the photographer that we can't see but could have dropped its load in the foreground given the right breeze. Anyway it'd be interesting to see what you come up with - do you think it reasonable that you see this amount of leaves on the ground around Georgia in say Nov/Dec?
The other thing I wondered about was the number plate (or whatever's going on at the LH rear of the T). I know very little about U.S. plates of the time but could there be enough of its shape/size to give an idea of what state it could be from? Or were they all the same?
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Think it would be best to review and update the evidence.
-what information exists between the photo and the cigarette case other than it was found inside it. So might be trying to hard to force a connection.
Photo Taken in the U.S.?
-Steve believes Karol spent some time in the U.S. on a training regime - and facts to support it?
-Is there any reason why a Model T couldn't be in Scotland in 1945?
-Initially Steve said his Dad was in the Polish parachute regiment in late 1944 or early 1945. This lead to Ft. Benning. But this was corrected and his Dad enlisted into the Polish land forces in 1944, and was in the 1st Armoured Division. So the premise that the area in the photo could be Ft. Benning is no longer true, so it should be discarded.
TREEs
Oak Leaves or ? Fall in Georgia starts about November that is when leaves turn color not drop to the ground. I can't tell what leaves are on the ground in the photo. I have several Oak and other tress on my property. Bark on the trees look like Silver Birch more than anything, native to Scotland
Where was the Polish 1st Armored Division
https://www.historynet.com/commands-pol ... vision.htm and other references state The Polish 1st Armored Division was formed in Scotland on November 25, 1942 (Duns Area) later reference 1st Armd Car Regt (Dalkeith) and 1st Armd Regt (Duns area)
Case Engravings
Karol is a West Slavic (Polish and Slovak) version of the name Charles or Carl. It is also used as a Polish translation of Charles or Karl. Possible that the engraver misspelled Karol on the inscription (asked for Carl but assumed buyer meant Carol) or that Steve's Dad purchased/found the case withe the inscription on the inside and had his initials put on the outside.
Carol From Byrne
The most common meaning of Byrne (variations: Burns, Byrn, Byrnes, O'Byrne) is a surname derived from the Irish name Ó Broin. There are two Irish surnames which have Byrne as their English spelling; the most common comes from Ó Broin, which refers to the Leinster-based family of Bran as described below, the less common family name is Ó Beirn or Ó Beirne in Irish comes from a different Sept or family and therefore has different origins. The latter is most commonly found in Mayo, Sligo and Donegal in the Northwest of Ireland
So case is likely to have originated in that vicinity.
-what information exists between the photo and the cigarette case other than it was found inside it. So might be trying to hard to force a connection.
Photo Taken in the U.S.?
-Steve believes Karol spent some time in the U.S. on a training regime - and facts to support it?
-Is there any reason why a Model T couldn't be in Scotland in 1945?
-Initially Steve said his Dad was in the Polish parachute regiment in late 1944 or early 1945. This lead to Ft. Benning. But this was corrected and his Dad enlisted into the Polish land forces in 1944, and was in the 1st Armoured Division. So the premise that the area in the photo could be Ft. Benning is no longer true, so it should be discarded.
TREEs
Oak Leaves or ? Fall in Georgia starts about November that is when leaves turn color not drop to the ground. I can't tell what leaves are on the ground in the photo. I have several Oak and other tress on my property. Bark on the trees look like Silver Birch more than anything, native to Scotland
Where was the Polish 1st Armored Division
https://www.historynet.com/commands-pol ... vision.htm and other references state The Polish 1st Armored Division was formed in Scotland on November 25, 1942 (Duns Area) later reference 1st Armd Car Regt (Dalkeith) and 1st Armd Regt (Duns area)
Case Engravings
Karol is a West Slavic (Polish and Slovak) version of the name Charles or Carl. It is also used as a Polish translation of Charles or Karl. Possible that the engraver misspelled Karol on the inscription (asked for Carl but assumed buyer meant Carol) or that Steve's Dad purchased/found the case withe the inscription on the inside and had his initials put on the outside.
Carol From Byrne
The most common meaning of Byrne (variations: Burns, Byrn, Byrnes, O'Byrne) is a surname derived from the Irish name Ó Broin. There are two Irish surnames which have Byrne as their English spelling; the most common comes from Ó Broin, which refers to the Leinster-based family of Bran as described below, the less common family name is Ó Beirn or Ó Beirne in Irish comes from a different Sept or family and therefore has different origins. The latter is most commonly found in Mayo, Sligo and Donegal in the Northwest of Ireland
So case is likely to have originated in that vicinity.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
For anyone interested in this thread, here's a short update...
Steve recently obtained his dad's service records. Unfortunately they're all in Polish, which Steve doesn't read, however (thanks to an online translator) he's been able to determine at least that his dad spent 1942/1943 as P.O.W. in Germany, and 1943/1944 in America, before joining the Polish Armoured Division in 1944.
It probably doesn't shed a lot of light on the T photo per se, however it cements the time Karol was in the U.S.
Just to complete the picture, Karol was injured in Nov 1944, and is listed in the "Cross of Valour" register under a pseudonym. Apparently this wasn't uncommon and his new name was properly recorded in his army papers...
Steve recently obtained his dad's service records. Unfortunately they're all in Polish, which Steve doesn't read, however (thanks to an online translator) he's been able to determine at least that his dad spent 1942/1943 as P.O.W. in Germany, and 1943/1944 in America, before joining the Polish Armoured Division in 1944.
It probably doesn't shed a lot of light on the T photo per se, however it cements the time Karol was in the U.S.
Just to complete the picture, Karol was injured in Nov 1944, and is listed in the "Cross of Valour" register under a pseudonym. Apparently this wasn't uncommon and his new name was properly recorded in his army papers...
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Early 1926 touring with 30x3 1/2 demountable wheels, no headlight bar, and the steering wheel is on upside down.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Further car ID: 26-27 hood louvers.
The chair is obviously cantilever, as already mentioned, made with bent tubing. It appears to have a canvas seat and back.
The chair is obviously cantilever, as already mentioned, made with bent tubing. It appears to have a canvas seat and back.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Why the chair appears to be floating. No back legs and right front leg hidden by tree. Jim Patrick
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Did owners flip the steering wheel upside down to accommodate the drivers dimensions? Its just a general quest ion since a yes or no answer doesn't help tie the car to anything
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
The car appears to be a marriage of parts, the hood louvers are not aligned correctly, they should be straight. Light bars were on as early as 1925. During this era of time headlights were optional and it is possible the headlights were installed later possibly by a dealer or previous owner. In the photo ident the 7 in 97 is crossed which was a European trait. To day it is more common but it wasn't seen in this hemisphere except by European people. The car appears to have had some refurbishing done to it therefore it could be ten - twelve years old in the photo. Some person has installed top bow saddles to allow the top to be lowered, they came from the factory with no saddles just rubber plugs.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
The car appears to be a Canadian model because of the functioning driver's door. Mainly Canadian models were exported, some with left or right hand drive depending on the country.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Strong possibility- Considering that WWII Polish troops were stationed in Dalkeith Scotland they may have did some RnR in area attractions. A most famous park, Waterfall Pavilion Park, is know for 5 fantastic waterfalls. In searching information about the park I found a photo that has similar trees, leaves on the ground as the mystery photo.
A structure in the park had a fire recently but does resemble the one in the background of the car photo. Notice that there may have been some windows/vents between the wall and roof. Still searching for a picture of it before the fire. There are also many row house bordering the park.
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
That's not a T sold in the UK, it's LHD, pity we can't see the number plate.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
For those interested in the human side of this story I spoke with Steve again today; he's been able to decipher some of the documentation he received from which some interesting things have turned up.
It turns out that his Dad was captured by the Germans in 1942 or thereabouts. His brother was sent to a concentration camp, and he (Steve's Dad, Karol) was then conscripted into the German army under threat of death and/or death/torture of his family in the camp. It is thought that the reason he and others were conscripted was due to their last name (being of German rather than Polish origin).
Karol was then sent to North Africa as a member of the German forces whereupon at some stage he was captured by the U.S. Army and sent to the U.S. as a P.O.W.
In the U.S. he was most likely placed as a [farm?] labourer (this is educated conjecture as no records exist or have been found at this stage - see later), rather than imprisoned in the normal sense - this is due to his original nationality, and that he wasn't a member of the Nazi party (apparently they were separated off).
At some stage later he was able to explain sufficiently to the authorities how he came to be in the German forces and was then relocated to the U.K. where he joined the Polish forces and eventually returned to the war on the allied side, and was wounded and honoured for his work. It appears he was a sapper at some stage and may have been wounded as a result of clearing mines, although this has yet to be confirmed - Steve is having the records professionally translated and more may come of that.
As a result of the current information it appears there would likely have been records of what Karol was doing and where he was located from both Germany and the U.S. Unfortunately as it turns out there was a fire in the U.S. records office and most of the data was lost, what remained was apparently sent back to Germany after the war and, at this stage, Steve has been unable to find out anything more.
So although it doesn't shed much light on the origin of the photograph of the T it means the ribbing I've been giving Steve about him perhaps having relatives in the U.S. remains alive It also means that it's quite possible someone, or at least some family (farm owners?), may have had interaction with Karol while he was in the U.S., and they might remember him - or have photographs perhaps.
While I wouldn't expect it likely to find those people now, if anyone had any information on where such prisoners may have been working it'd be nice to be able to pass on back to Steve. Incidentally the story around parachute training was one of the few things his dad ever said to Steve about what he did in the war; this doesn't appear to be set out in the U.K. records, however it may have been in the U.S. records (had they been obtainable), so whether he spent time at Ft Benning cannot, unfortunately, be confirmed.
It turns out that his Dad was captured by the Germans in 1942 or thereabouts. His brother was sent to a concentration camp, and he (Steve's Dad, Karol) was then conscripted into the German army under threat of death and/or death/torture of his family in the camp. It is thought that the reason he and others were conscripted was due to their last name (being of German rather than Polish origin).
Karol was then sent to North Africa as a member of the German forces whereupon at some stage he was captured by the U.S. Army and sent to the U.S. as a P.O.W.
In the U.S. he was most likely placed as a [farm?] labourer (this is educated conjecture as no records exist or have been found at this stage - see later), rather than imprisoned in the normal sense - this is due to his original nationality, and that he wasn't a member of the Nazi party (apparently they were separated off).
At some stage later he was able to explain sufficiently to the authorities how he came to be in the German forces and was then relocated to the U.K. where he joined the Polish forces and eventually returned to the war on the allied side, and was wounded and honoured for his work. It appears he was a sapper at some stage and may have been wounded as a result of clearing mines, although this has yet to be confirmed - Steve is having the records professionally translated and more may come of that.
As a result of the current information it appears there would likely have been records of what Karol was doing and where he was located from both Germany and the U.S. Unfortunately as it turns out there was a fire in the U.S. records office and most of the data was lost, what remained was apparently sent back to Germany after the war and, at this stage, Steve has been unable to find out anything more.
So although it doesn't shed much light on the origin of the photograph of the T it means the ribbing I've been giving Steve about him perhaps having relatives in the U.S. remains alive It also means that it's quite possible someone, or at least some family (farm owners?), may have had interaction with Karol while he was in the U.S., and they might remember him - or have photographs perhaps.
While I wouldn't expect it likely to find those people now, if anyone had any information on where such prisoners may have been working it'd be nice to be able to pass on back to Steve. Incidentally the story around parachute training was one of the few things his dad ever said to Steve about what he did in the war; this doesn't appear to be set out in the U.K. records, however it may have been in the U.S. records (had they been obtainable), so whether he spent time at Ft Benning cannot, unfortunately, be confirmed.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Here's a link referring to a PBS show I saw that touched on German POWs helping in the community, stationed at Camp Perry during WWII.
https://www.wgte.org/schedules/program/ ... 6/10-00-00
Bill
https://www.wgte.org/schedules/program/ ... 6/10-00-00
Bill
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Thanks Bill, I'll pass that link on to Steve.
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Shoot. Bad link Bill. Would you try again?
Apparently many Ohioans did not know about the German and some Italian POW's held at Perry.
And possibly other camps. Neat story!
What I found. "ww2 german pow's helping in the community, stationed camp perry" do a search.
Interesting.
Apparently many Ohioans did not know about the German and some Italian POW's held at Perry.
And possibly other camps. Neat story!
What I found. "ww2 german pow's helping in the community, stationed camp perry" do a search.
Interesting.
Since I lost my mind mind, I feel more liberated
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Here's a link to the PBS Show "Homefront"
Around 19 mins it talks about the POWs at Camp Perry. The whole show is Interesting history during that time.
Bill
https://www.pbs.org/video/the-homefront-3eqi3o/
Here's the 2nd generation Model T
https://www.pbs.org/video/toledo-storie ... l-soldier/
Around 19 mins it talks about the POWs at Camp Perry. The whole show is Interesting history during that time.
Bill
https://www.pbs.org/video/the-homefront-3eqi3o/
Here's the 2nd generation Model T
https://www.pbs.org/video/toledo-storie ... l-soldier/
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Re: Can we solve a 75-year old mystery?
Info on Major POW (German prisoners) camps in the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_pr ... ted_States There are some information on reference material in the link
While I was in Collage I worked for a guy here in the USA who was a WW2 German POW. He said that all he new was that he was on a farm somewhere and felt that it was in the middle of the US. There was no talk of escape because there was the ocean to cross eventually. We could never really confirm where he was at, except that it was likely in the mid-west somewhere because of the terrain and crops (Iowa, Illinois, Indiana or Ohio and maybe Nebraska).
While I was in Collage I worked for a guy here in the USA who was a WW2 German POW. He said that all he new was that he was on a farm somewhere and felt that it was in the middle of the US. There was no talk of escape because there was the ocean to cross eventually. We could never really confirm where he was at, except that it was likely in the mid-west somewhere because of the terrain and crops (Iowa, Illinois, Indiana or Ohio and maybe Nebraska).
The past is a great place and I don't want to erase it or to regret it, but I don't want to be its prisoner either.
Mick Jagger
Mick Jagger