MTFCA Forum

Hi, I've moved on to doing the steering column for Haywagon to Speedster. The idea is 3 bad ones to make one good one.I have Column 1 'good' relatively complete steering column, no cap. I have shaft 2 with the steering gears and cap, loose gears, missing one pin. The cap is magnetic. I have column 3 poor condition bent shaft, corroded steering column with an interesting locking non-magnetic cap with a mystery hole. Issues: The steel cap for shaft 2 does not fit column 1. It is too small. I wonder why? Did they come in different sizes? What do I have with the cap on column 3? I do not have the key for it. I suspect the little, deep mystery hole has something to do with it coming off. Looking deep inside the little mystery hole with a magnifying glass may or may not reveal a slotted fastener? Is this something I might be able to take off and use? If so, how? I am told it is probably nickel plated brass since it is not magnetic. Finally I have this interesting wood steering wheel also with a lock. I have no key. I have a non-locking (aluminum?) T mount that fits it. I know nothing else about it. If anyone recognizes what this is and what I can do with it for my speedster to be?

Also, I am piecing together the steering gear which was missing a lot of parts. Pictured is a possible replacement drag link end on one side. My 1922 Touring has grease cups on either side where they join the drag link body. Lang's lists APCO accessory spring loaded drag link ball cap set 2 per car. https://www.modeltford.com/item/2728APCO.aspx No grease cup. Are they supposed to normally have grease cups or just a slotted threaded plug as per Lang's/APCO?

Well, that steering spider on top of the locking wood steering wheel is not stock T, and is likely from some other model car. The drag link end looks pretty wallowed out. Better steering columns aren't that hard to find (around here (northern Califunny) at least) and I would recommend you go looking! Steering is critical for survival of both the car and the human in it.
Locking covers are neat, but they usually are a restoration nightmare, requiring lots of patience and usually some clever machining work.

Ignacio, The cover for the center steerig gear in the picture of the three gears is cross threaded on the gear case. Clean the threads up with a thread file and the number one gear case threads.
I would only try to use collum one, the best one from your discription of the collums. The no2 cover is pre 1925 for 4 to 1 gears but will work. You did not say if they were 1925 back, round firewall mount, or 1926-27, square mount, and 5 to 1 gears. You can use 5 to 1 set, shaft, center gear, 3 planit gears in a 1925 back but for your 1926 car frame you need a 1926 lower mount. Measure the wood wheel diameter to see if a stock Ford 16 or 17 inch spider will fit. I would not mess with the locking stuff or the non Ford spider. Mock everything up to check length needed and get a good stock Ford drag length for your car if it is mostly stock.

I buzzed the calcium off of the steering shaft lock so I could read what it says. It is a Perry auto lock company 1917 patent with a Yale brand lock. Underwriters laboratory tested. I did not know they existed in 1917. Discussed on MTF http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/25 ... 1333215460 Per the enclosed diagram, the mystery hole is a 'set screw'

Here is an ad: https://www.alamy.com/hardware-merchand ... 60113.html

They all seem to be earlies with the round firewall mount. It came with what I think is a regular aluminum spider which should fit I hope.

kmatt2 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:40 pm

Ignacio, The cover for the center steerig gear in the picture of the three gears is cross threaded on the gear case. Clean the threads up with a thread file and the number one gear case threads.
I would only try to use collum one, the best one from your discription of the collums. The no2 cover is pre 1925 for 4 to 1 gears but will work. You did not say if they were 1925 back, round firewall mount, or 1926-27, square mount, and 5 to 1 gears. You can use 5 to 1 set, shaft, center gear, 3 planit gears in a 1925 back but for your 1926 car frame you need a 1926 lower mount. Measure the wood wheel diameter to see if a stock Ford 16 or 17 inch spider will fit. I would not mess with the locking stuff or the non Ford spider. Mock everything up to check length needed and get a good stock Ford drag length for your car if it is mostly stock.

That drag link is shot. The original for caps were just like the one on the wishbone socket, but smaller. No grease cup or spring inside. Make sure that you use the correct length drag link and tie rod. There are several different ones of each. Also, make sure to use a gear case with the steering stop groove in the bottom.

Stephen

Here's a picture of the lock on the steering shaft. The lock says PA 129. the bad news is there appears to be a broken off key in the lock.

To add to what Stephen just said, Royce Peterson, who left this forum and started another excellent forum several years ago, called,..... I believe,..."Fix Auto",....??? Not sure about that. But anyway, several years ago, Royce posted on THIS forum, an excellent post that talked about the fact that there are (....I believe) at least five (5) different length Model T drag links, and the fact that it is a common mistake to try to use one that is incorrect. It's an easy mistake to make, because several are not all that much different than others, and you can get them to work, but not very well. All that to say that it is worth some research to be certain that you have the CORRECT drag link,......FWIW,......harold

How an I tell which drag link size is the right one?

Here is some information from this link http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1410903128
What model year are the rest of the front end parts (axle, spindles, steering box, pit arm and tie rod) ?
early cars till 9/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16)
9/19/14 till 10/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16) to 30.750 (30-3/4) A tolerance for manufacturing purposes is the reason for two measurements
10/19/14 till 10/2/17 31.062 to 31.125
10/2/17 till 5/19/19 30.938 to 31.062
5/19/19 till start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) 30.312 to 30.438
Start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) till 10/7/25 31.125 to 31.250
10/7/25 till end of production 30.812 to 30.875

On further looking at it and picking it was just crud in the entrance, no key in it. Now some way to get a key for a Yale & Town PA 129 lock?

ivaldes1 wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:41 pm

Here's a picture of the lock on the steering shaft. The lock says PA 129. the bad news is there appears to be a broken off key in the lock.

It is a 26-27 chassis and steering gear.

TRDxB2 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 09, 2020 12:24 am

Here is some information from this link http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/41 ... 1410903128
What model year are the rest of the front end parts (axle, spindles, steering box, pit arm and tie rod) ?
early cars till 9/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16)
9/19/14 till 10/19/14 30.687 (30-11/16) to 30.750 (30-3/4) A tolerance for manufacturing purposes is the reason for two measurements
10/19/14 till 10/2/17 31.062 to 31.125
10/2/17 till 5/19/19 30.938 to 31.062
5/19/19 till start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) 30.312 to 30.438
Start of Improved Models (Aug 1925) till 10/7/25 31.125 to 31.250
10/7/25 till end of production 30.812 to 30.875

On a speedster because you will most likely be using some type of steering column drop for the lower seats coupled with any front end drop it is best to mock up steering for correct drag link length. Check at left and right lock, long pin in gear case at groove limits,. and at wheels straight ahead.. Allow for weight of motor on spring., look for any possible problems from wishbone, etc. Get the drag link closest to your measured ones, say + or - a inch or so.

That should read + or - half inch or so.

"the bad news is there appears to be a broken off key in the lock" Actually, that would be GOOD news, if it was the correct key as then you would be able to manipulate the cylinder, and likely ease it's removal--plus you'd know what the key cuts should be. You likely would not be able to remove the key, as the wafers are likely "frozen" in the cylinder, but they would be frozen in the "open" position, which usually allows things to be manipulated for disassembly..
This is why locking steering devices usually require a lot of patience to work on, the materials they are made of tend to corrode to each other. Dissimilar metals, you know!

The original drag link is long gone. It did not come with the hay wagon. The tie rod may be original. I measure the drag link I have at 30.75 inches.

Yes, the drag link you have is totally worn out. I don’t think the insert you can buy would help it.
Call Lang’s and see if they have one. They have lots of good usable parts.

kmatt2 wrote: ↑

Sun Aug 09, 2020 1:23 am

On a speedster because you will most likely be using some type of steering column drop for the lower seats coupled with any front end drop it is best to mock up steering for correct drag link length. Check at left and right lock, long pin in gear case at groove limits,. and at wheels straight ahead.. Allow for weight of motor on spring., look for any possible problems from wishbone, etc. Get the drag link closest to your measured ones, say + or - a inch (corrected to 1/2 inch) or so.

What would he be checking besides interference of pan wishbone etc (drop or not)? Is there a connection between tie rod length to drag link length ? This is a picture of hos front end from a previous posting. Never indicated what he's doing to the front end

In general when building a car up from parts, which can be mismatched, it is best to check out the steering for possible problems. With a speedster that generally uses a steering gear drop because of the lower seats, the pitman arm ball moves a little forward and up, not much, but all the stock drag links measurements only differ a little. One example in general is just changimg the tie rod from a 1918 type to a 1919 type changes the attachment location of the drag link and the length just a little bit.

So the steering gear cap on shaft 2 does not fit on column 1. The cap is slightly too small like 0.1 of an inch diameter. They both have 3 gears in them. I wonder why the size mis-match?

Rather doubt the steering case covers are different sized. Perhaps just damage to the brass steering case, it is soft brass and can be smushed out-of-round in the circumference. Case covers are typical plated steel, but they can be deformed too. With a column out of car no telling how it was treated or thrown around.

When using parts from various steering columns, beware to the changes over the years. There are three main types of later columns, those without the steering case pinion post groove, or "Gear Stop" as Ford called it, and the two with these grooves, the 1922 and later with 4:1 gears the later '25-'27 with 5:1pinion gears and steering shaft, they won't interchange.

Note "A" that is the long pinion post found on the 1922 and later gear cases, it rides in a groove in the base of the steering case and prevents over-center travel to prevent wheel lockup, a real safety improvement.

'25-'27 case on left......'22-24 case on right, note the groove differences.

Dan, a 4:1 case can be converted to 5:1 (and vice versa) by changing the gears and shaft. You are correct that you can't mix internal parts. The gear cases have the same diameter and number of teeth. I took a 4:1 case like the one on the right in your photo and milled the slot to match the 5:1. I used all 5:1 parts and it works perfectly.

Is there any way to tell from the outside if it is 4:1 or 5:1?

If you take the cover off the shaft and gears are marked with a 5 stamped on them. Don

Or just count the teeth, that will tell you.


Remember too, the steering post (long shaft) is different for the 5:1 and only can be used with 5:1 gear set. The steering cases can be interchanged, but use the proper groove length case.

DHort wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:59 pm

Is there any way to tell from the outside if it is 4:1 or 5:1?

And generally, unless the steering column has been molested, the gear cover that has full width knurl around the cover is the one found on 5:1 steering gear cases.