Band Eating transmission

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Barry Loucks
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Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:56 am

Okay, I don't know this for sure, but I don't like where this looks like it's going...
A little background is in order. I have a '22 Coupe. The engine and trans were overhauled a long time ago by Ron's Machine Shop in Ohio. Among the usual babbit, pistons, rings etc. the trans also got a new brake and reverse drum, as the ones in the car were cracked. The low drum was one that was in the car when I got it, and I believe it was an old original. Two years ago after many Little League and hockey games with kids I was determined to get the car out and running. With a little help that happened. The car had a new set at the time Kevlar bands installed. Now these wouldn't have been a set of the ones more recently that had quality problems. I drove the car, but within a few hundred miles the clutch adjustment was used up, and I had no brakes. Inspecting the bands through the cover they looked okay (lots of lining left), but decided to put new bands in anyway and this time take more time to ease the adjustment process. Yes, I think I tried to adjust the first set in too fast, (High clutch and brake pedal). I've installed Kevlar bands before successfully so I know the drill... I think...
Covid gave me back little more time this spring. I changed the bands. Now interestingly, the ones I took off, looked pretty nice, but clearly there was a diameter problem, because the adjustment was almost completely used up. The new bands I just put in were checked for roundness on a brake drum (small diameter), and they were absolutely round, nice, no gaps, real nice. No, I didn't put any feeler gauges to check how nice. They are quick change bands but I pulled the hogshead anyway (GRRRRR) and put them in without deforming them. I adjusted free neutral. The car can be pushed with one hand across the garage floor in neutral. The clutch adjustment is 13/16 inch.
I started driving it. It goes like the dickens. I have a straight through NH on it and a Waukesha Ricardo head. The bands were adjusted to just make the car start and stop (barely). So far I've gone about 50 miles, some stop and go so used the brakes and clutch, and some just cruising. I've adjusted brake and clutch about 5 times already, again, sneaking up on it. Yes I know how to drive a Model T. I drive it like it has no brakes, off the gas long before I anticipate stopping, I don't slip the clutch, it gets engaged then the acceleration starts.
I can't say enough good things about Ron's Machine Shop. I don't for a second think their workmanship has anything to do with this problem.
So back to the bands again, why is this transmission adjustment taking so long, and what did I overlook?
BTW, the diameters of the trans drums through the inspection cover look identical, and the finish on them is smooth.

What's up??

Barry Loucks

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by dykker5502 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 12:58 pm

Is the clutch the original steel plates only or a modern? I think modern.
Are you sure the band don't slip when in low?
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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:06 pm

They are modern clutches. The clutch slipping in low is only to get the car moving from a dead stop. My other T with Kevlar bands gets driven the same way and I haven’t adjusted those bands in a long time.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by paddy1998 » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:06 pm

Pictures of the view through the inspection cover might help.

How's reverse?

I'm having a hard time with all the low speed adjustment being used up and yet the wear material still being in good shape; it just doesn't seem possible.

What kind of oil and/or additives/friction modifiers are you running in the crankcase?

Is your slow speed notch/cam worn?

Just sort of grasping at straws here . . .

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by DanTreace » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:08 pm

Bit unclear on your issue(s).

"I've adjusted brake and clutch about 5 times already, again, sneaking up on it."

Initially, the low pedal band adj. is very important to achieve, so that low lining firmly grips the low drum to engage the planetary gears.
Double check that adj. You might find your low band is too loose, that can result in the pedal sticking down as it goes over center by loose linkage to the clutch fork. You will want the low pedal to engage fully about 3" or 4" of pedal travel, that leaves the gap to adj. 'free neutral' with the linkage to the clutch lever.

But your statement of adjusting the clutch, via the fingers pushing on the driving plate is a main concern. Shouldn't have to do that much at all.

Brake band too needs to grip firmly on the brake drum, after some pedal travel, if too loose, the linings will wear or overheat. Ford Service at paragraph 526. Adjust so the bands won't slip on the drums, just not tight with no pedal movement. Initially the linings will seat as you may adjust one time or maybe twice if your initial was loose, or your linings had gaps to the band.



Maybe the hogshead needs attention to the pedals, pedal shafts, low speed notch, or brake and reverse supports too.
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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:24 pm

The hogshead and pedals did get new cams and shafts. I forgot to mention that. The clutch pedal did go overcenter when I first stated the adjustment, I added enough so that wouldn’t happen. I’m using Quaker State SAE 10w30, no additives.
I’m fearful of adjusting too fast. Yes I’m confused by the condition of the old bands I pulled out.
Give me a few minutes and I’ll see if I can get a picture through the inspection cover


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by John kuehn » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:25 pm

From your description it sounds like the pedal notches are worn to the point that your pedals are going to far over or bottoming out and yet you still have good band thickness. In other words no more pedal left to adjust.

Has the transmission cover been gone through before? If not remove the cover and replace the slow speed notch for sure and the other two while your at it.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 1:55 pm

John,

That makes sense!! if the pedal cams which by the way were new and I changed the ones on the pedals too, and changed the shafts weren't engaging correctly then the adjustment would be gone but the band still good. I took a photo but I'm struggling how to upload it.
If I can talk him into it, I might ask a knowledgeable friend to drop by and double check my clutch adjustment. I'm preeeetttty sure I'm good, the car seems to shift right but one never knows.
I will tell you I was considering putting wingnuts on the hogshead at one point. I think it has been off once or twice every year in the last 6-7 years. The cams on the hogshead and pedal shafts was the subject of an earlier discussion a few weeks ago. How do you check a reproduction part?

Barry


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by DHort » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:15 pm

Barry

You live in Detroit. There has to be a bunch of guys close to you who could come over and give you a second opinion. I would reach out and ask for help before I pulled the hogshead again. But then, you might have done that already.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 2:37 pm

NO. I haven’t pulled the hogshead again. I’d rather have a root canal. I do know one guy, maybe you’ve heard of him, a Jerry Van.
Jerry and his late father are the reason my cars even run. I just sent him a quick note.
This is what’s tough to understand. The pedal cams were changed. I did it several years ago. Are the reproduction ones any good? How do you verify? You’d need a profile gauge. I think the cams need to checked again for sure, it’s just tough to think about doing it once already and now doing it again, after basically no driving. I can tell you I’ve done some things more than once because it wasn’t done right the first time, but hey, we learn, and I try like heck to do it right the first time now.
Does anyone have experience with the pedal cams? Did they reproduce worn out ones?


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Aug 10, 2020 4:58 pm

You keep saying the "clutch", however you say the low and brake are needing adjustment. The clutch only affects the high gear. How is the high gear working? Does it slip? If so, you have a problem with the clutch. If not, but you have a problem with wear on low and brake check the following.
The condition of the drums. It is usually the low drum which gets cracked, because it is weaker than the brake drum and it gets used more frequently than the reverse. With the inspection plate off, you can still see the drum through the space between the ends of the bands. So jack up one rear wheel, or leave it in high gear on a more level surface and push the car slowly either forward or backward. If you jack up one wheel, leave it in high gear and rotate the starting crank slowly. Either have someone look at the drums while they turn, or move the crank a little and then go and check yourself. Note the condition of the drum all the way around for cracks of rough areas. If they are smooth. If cracked, you need to replace the drums or it will just keep wearing out the lining.
Another thing is this: You must not slip the bands when you go in low or reverse. Not like a more modern stick shift clutch. You push down the pedal hard and adjust speed with the throttle.
The third thing to check would be the cams and notches. They must allow pedal to clamp the band tightly around the drum before pedal hits the floorboard. If they are worn, you will slip the band even though the pedal is adjusted tightly. I don't think this is your problem because you say the car can be pushed freely when the bands are adjusted.
Norm

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:26 pm

Hi Norm, bad use of terminology. When I say I was adjusting the clutch I meant low. The clutch does not slip in high gear. Interestingly the cams on the pedals and cover were replaced. Unless the repro parts were really bad that shouldn’t be the issue. Clearly something is amiss. I’ve had a lot of great feedback.
I was hoping to not have to call Jerryvan, but that’s what I did this afternoon. Back when Jerry was a single guy I called too often when I was in trouble. He has a life outside of this crazy pastime now, and I only call when up up to my neck in it.
We’ll report out what this was.

One other thing. This is a Canadian hogshead and pedals, but they were put together by me. IT SHOULDN’T make a difference. It shouldn’t. Hey Alan down under, the Canadian expert. Are you aware of any differences on pedals or ??????

Barry

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Aug 10, 2020 6:33 pm

If they drums are not sanded, bands take a lot of abuse. I sand and polish mine down to 400 grit.

Just Sayin',

Hank

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:18 pm

Next time!!! I can’t see my face in these, but there’s no machine marks/grooves. Maybe I’ll just slip some 400 grit between the band and the drum. Just kidding... If I can figure out how to post a photo I’ll put one up showing the finish on those drums.
I appreciate the tip.

Barry

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Henry K. Lee » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:32 pm

Barry sorry for this happening.., really sucks. I have found out too over the years, the smoother the drum, the better the operation and longevity.

Hank

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 10, 2020 7:47 pm

Yeah it does suck. Just got back from a little league game. Of course I took the coupe. Geez it’s fun to drive. The problem I’m having it’s like... it’s like... I was going to say childbirth but then the baby comes and it was all worth it. I didn’t however say it was like childbirth. Cause that’s a lot more painful, and guys just don’t have any idea do they... :oops:
So it’s not like childbirth but it’s a fraction as painful and that’s enough for me...

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:35 pm

My machinist buddy polishes my used drums on his crankshaft polisher - baby-butt smooth !


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Norman Kling » Mon Aug 10, 2020 9:34 pm

Check your low pedal and shaft. When you push it down, it will move about half way down without moving inward. That first half of the movement is, all the way out, high and half way down is neutral. As soon as it reaches neutral the pedal should move inward or toward the right which will tighten the band and when it is about 1" to 1 1/2" above the floorboard the band should be tight and the pedal should stop moving. If it doesn't start moving by at least half way down, either your cam and notch are not working or the pedal is bent toward the floorboard. In that case the only way you can get the band to tighten up and still have a free neutral is with pedal stopping below the floorboard. If it starts moving about half way down, your notch and cam are OK. So I would say either you are not pushing hard enough when in low, or your drum is rough or cracked.
Norm

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:29 am

Thanks all for the advice on polish for trans drums. I’ll have a look and compare them to the drums on my ‘13 which has no issues. It’s not easy to evaluate polish without holding parts next to each other but at least they’re in the same garage.
I’ll also have a look at cam action and tell you what I have. Today I’m working for the man, so I’ll have to report back later.
With regards to driving style my other car with old drums and Kevlar band linings have gone a few thousand miles without any adjusting. That would suggest the cams and or drum finish.

I hope anyone reading this and has an engine/trans apart for an overhaul is going to give those drums a nice polish before re-assembly!!!
Thanks for the great tips.

Barry

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:18 pm

Okay,

The low pedal starts moving inboard towards car centerline immediately upon movement of the pedal as does reverse and brake.
So, what’s the issue with that?

Barry

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:24 pm

...new brake and reverse drum...

Really new, or originals that looked good? You didn't say new low drum, so I gather that's an original. It doesn't take much of a crack to eat up your band linings, even if they're Kevlar.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Allan » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:07 pm

The brake and reverse pedals should immediately start to ramp up when the pedals are pushed. First gear should not. There should be some travel in the pedal before it begins to ramp. This is what gives you a neutral position when shifting between low and high speed. It would seem there is some adjustment needed in the clutch/linkage at the pedal.

Allan from down under.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:49 am

Thanks!!
Reverse and brake were NEW drums, not good old ones. Low was a drum that was not cracked, so original to the transmission it came out of. After all these years nobody knows, but it’s safe to say it’s decades old.
Back to the low pedal and band. How do I get the pedal to go down part way before traveling towards the center line of car? Is that adjustment of the bolt on the stick? If I was to back the band off to where it is today I’ll have no pedal! I haven’t checked for cracks on the drums as was suggested a few days ago. Certainly that is still a possible cause here, but keep in mind the car has been driven very few miles since it was inspected. I’ll check.

Barry


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Ray Syverson » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:13 am

Barry. "Back to the low pedal and band. How do I get the pedal to go down part way before traveling towards the center line of car?"
When you are doing this check, you need to have the car in high gear with the hand brake lever forward. So with the low pedal as far back as possible before you push it. (I sense you may already know this and if so, sorry. Just seems like this could be why you say your pedal immediately starts to tighten.)

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:22 am

Ray, I hadn’t done that. The “emergency brake” handle was pointed up.
I’ll recheck that when I get home.

Thanks for that input.

Barry

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by RajoRacer » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:32 am

Barry - do you have a copy of the Ford "Bible" ? It has a chapter specific to adjusting the clutch, bands & about everything else you might want to know about your T !

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:18 pm

Yes I do and I read it and believe I followed it.


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Luxford » Sat Aug 15, 2020 4:44 pm

Barry, It appears from what you have written that this is a RHD Canadian car, is that correct??
Either way it does not matter as both LH & RH systems are the same.
Reverse and brake pedals move to the left, the clutch/low pedal moves to the right.
if you replaced the cams the Reverse and brake cams are the same but the clutch/low cam is the opposite.
If you put a reverse or brake cam in place of the clutch/low cam then it may be why you are having this problem.
Although the cam ramp would be behind the pedal cam instead of in front of it the pedal will still move forward as it can work off the cams rear side.
Do you remember when you replaced the cams that there was a difference between them?


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by John kuehn » Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:16 pm

What Luxford mentioned about the pedal cams being accidentally switched could have happened.
They do look close to being alike at first glance but switching could have happened if the transmission cover was completely torn down and parts being replaced.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:36 am

The car is NOT RHD. It is possible the cams were mixed up. I’m going back to square one today to see if I can figure it out.


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Allan » Sun Aug 16, 2020 8:58 pm

Barry, if you disconnect the pedal to clutch fork linkage, depending on wear in the ramps, you should be able to pull/push the pedal back and forth a couple of inches or so, before the pedal begins to ramp. If you cannot do this, there is a problem with the pedal ramp/notch mix.
I believe there should be 1.5" of movement if all components are as new. Worn parts will give more movement. I once rebuilt the ramps on a clutch pedal to eliminate all movement just like the brake and reverse pedals, only to find I had to remove much of my handiwork to put that travel back into my assembly. We all live and learn!

Allan from down under.

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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Mon Aug 17, 2020 8:12 pm

Hi Alan, with the clutch fork linkage disconnected there is free play in the low pedal, 1 3/4 inch to be exact before the pedal shaft starts up the ramp. As I mentioned before the ramps on the pedal shafts and hogs head were both changed. It was mentioned in an earlier post that maybe they were put in backwards. I suppose that’s possible. Do they fit in backwards? I’m sure I’ll find out.
Just to make it clear, I still have adjustment left on the low, brake and reverse. I’m just suspicious that the bands haven’t found their adjustment yet.
Now the drums weren’t polished by 400 grit paper. I still haven’t compared the finish on these drums to my other car with a few thousand miles on the bands. I. Just. Don’t. Want. To. Pull. The. Hogshead. Off. Again. So soon.
Maybe I should just drive it and let the chips land where they go.


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Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Allan » Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:16 am

Hi Barry,
All sounds good. I believe the ramps can be mixed, but I doubt they would work. The angle on one ramp would be trying to negotiate a ride on a square angle, so you most likely have it right. Kevlar bands I have used have had to be adjusted 3 or 4 times initially as they bed in, and then are set for good.
I set the adjustment just tight enough for the bands to operate and that leaves maximum clearance to avoid drag. I am not tempted to adjust them up a bit to avoid having to make a couple of the settling in adjustments.

Allan from down under.

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Barry Loucks
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:37 am
First Name: Barry
Last Name: Loucks
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13, 22
Location: Grosse Pointe Park, MI
MTFCI Number: 19626

Re: Band Eating transmission

Post by Barry Loucks » Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:28 pm

I had a few minutes tonight to look over a few things. First I compared the polish on the drums of my 13 which has nicely bedded in Kevlar bands. The low drum has a bit better finish than brake or reverse but it’s nothing to be proud of. Compared to the transmission that I’m complaining about... they are all comparable. None are great. It’s been a while since I had the cover off the 13. There was a great collection of crap in the screen and the bands are adjusted more than I recalled including the low pedal.
I think I’m going to drive it and adjust it up. I was thinking the adjustment was moving too fast, and it might be but I may not be as badly off as I thought. Sound like wishful thinking? It is.

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