Drive shaft follies.

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ivaldes1
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Drive shaft follies.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:44 pm

Edit: Changed the title to drive shaft follies. There is some rust on the shaft at the bushing that is a bit rough on one face, even after drill wire brush, see picture. Is it ruined get another?
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:13 am

I see it as you have two choices; get it turned down and make a new upper bushing or buy a new one and install ream and face a new bushing. Looks worn and scored. The bearing surface at the U-joint end of the driveshaft has to be one of the most overlooked parts of the drive train in my OP, to much wear and loose fit will allow the drive shaft to move around.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:18 am

I’m trying to think why it would be ruined, but I can’t think of a thing. I wouldn’t hesitate to slop some grease on it and use it. Jim Patrick


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by kmatt2 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:45 am

Ignacio, If the bearing area isn't way under size and the circlelor grouves aren't over a few thousandth of a inch deep it is probably OK. Can you catch a finger nail on the grouves in middle of bearing area. ? How is the other end of the shaft ? Check the : taper, keyway, threads, bearing surface, thrust washer & thrust bearing area. Thrust bearing area sometimes gets deelp wear grouves. Is the shaft strength, not slightly bent ? If all OK then I would use the shaft.


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Aug 22, 2020 2:03 am

Can you provide a sharper photo of the area? The photo you posted is blurry. If there are any raised, sharp areas that could cut into the bushing, I would take a piece of 600 wet/dry sandpaper, wet it and wrap it around the bearing shaft area, grip it in your hand and twist the shaft back and forth a few times until smooth. Don’t sand enough to take any off of the bearing surface, just enough to smooth down the raised points. While doing this, keep the sandpaper wet. If it is otherwise smooth with a few recessed scratches or pits, but no raised sharp areas that could cut into the bushing, I wouldn’t worry about it. If there are any deep rust pits with rust in them, it would be advantageous to remove (dissolve) the rust pits using muriatic acid. A wire brush will not get to the bottom of the pit without unnecessarily removing and distorting surrounding material, deforming the shaft bearing area. The reason for removing the rust pits is, in case one of the pits of hard rust is dislodged and remains between the bearing and bushing, it could damage the surfaces. Jim Patrick


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by George Hand » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:36 am

I doubt that it can be turned down, from your picture it looks smaller than the diameter of the "U-joint" square already, find another or go to a machine shop & see if they can spray weld & grind back down. The local Engine Machine shop in my area does not spray weld but he grinds back and welds up shafts and regrinds on his crankshaft grinder for local manufacturing company's machines. Machine shop option will be more than a new shaft, Chaffin's Garage has new replacements listed for $ 130. in there current catalog Lang's is $ 129.75, Snyder's list is $ 128. I have several used axle assembly's that I would probably take apart for my self first, then get frustrated if I could not find a useable shaft & order a new one anyway. George


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by John kuehn » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:28 am

Sand with fine sandpaper then get some crocus cloth and polish it the best you can. Install a new bushing, grease it and put it back together. It will last as long as you own your car and outlast you.

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:57 am

I have had several cleaned up and polished. The flats where the U-joint fits carry the load not the corners. I then make a new bushing that is bored, faced and reamed to the new size. To me it looks like the bearing area is worn down. The bushing would have to be reamed so the unworn corners of the square part where the U-joint fits that are larger now then the bearing area to slide thru. Leaving a lot of slop where the bushing rides. Even if you cleaned up the corners and polished the rest, you would still need a custom bushing, the stock one more then likely would have the hole too larger, allowing too much movement at that end. The machined area at this end, is the same diameter from one end to the other. That means the corners are the same diameter as the area where the bushing rides.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Adam » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:24 am

Looks like it’s worn very undersize, but hard to tell from the fuzzy photo...

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:11 pm

Better light and after wet sanding with 600 grit. Thoughts?
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:13 pm

This will be a new brass bushing. I will need to ream it as it already just barely does not fit over the square part at this time. I have a set of reamers but I wonder if the reamer will catch on the 2 channels on either side of the brass bushing?


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:45 pm

While there are a lot of deep pits, it looks like there is also a lot of original surface that will ride on the bushing surface. As long as there are no high spots that will dig into the new bushing, I would use it. Any sharp high spots that remain after sanding can be targeted and knocked down with a fine file. If it worries you, you can take it to a machinist who can advise you as to the best way to fill the pits and build the shaft up with metal and machine it down to fit the new bushing.

Where I used to work, we had a lot of old vintage, no longer made Railcar handling equipment such as 100 ton jacks that we had to maintain and keep running, that had worn shafts that were obsolete and no longer available, so we employed an old master welder/machinist who salvaged a lot of precision shafts in this manner. Jim Patrick


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by George Hand » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:12 pm

Looks like time to measure the shaft for wear. George

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:40 pm

Egads, please disregard the previous shaft. That was the old, weird drive shaft here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14379 that came with Shirley that I need to banish from my garage, put it in a 'safe' place or use as a toothpick. I re-found the correct shaft but I need to remove the sleeve shown in the picture that is not coming off quietly by hitting the washers on the bottom with a hammer. Suggestions welcome.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Mark Nunn » Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:52 pm

I removed my sleeve by grinding a groove along the length of the sleeve to loosen it. I used a cutoff wheel to cut the groove. As I was grinding I was watching the color of the sleeve. When I was close to the shaft surface the sleeve turned blue because the material was so thin. I stopped there and didn't cut into the shaft. I used a gear puller to remove the weakened sleeve.


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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by George Hand » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:18 pm

After retiring from my regular job at a new car dealership I took a part time position with a repair shop in the same town has my wife was working in, she was still working. In the shop was a prybar marked Ford with a square shank on one end, I had ask the owner if he knew where it came from he did not have a clue except it had been there for years then I told him what it was.

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by DanTreace » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:32 pm

Works for me is to soak real good with lots of penetrating oil (Kroil) and let it sit, then add more and tap tap to make it run down between the sleeve and shaft.

Only then, use a large gear puller against the washer and pull off the sleeve.


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IMG_7847 (550x413).jpg (101.41 KiB) Viewed 1691 times
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Last one had a busted Hyatt, so it was jammed, but same method pulled off the bearing and the sleeve.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:07 pm

Thanks for the tip on the puller. My 3 jaw puller was just big enough to do it and off it came!
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:37 pm

Further along in the drive shaft follies. I have a Fun Projects spool. I am following the written directions. The brass end sealed bearing and spool slide on to this correct drive shaft without difficulty. The Timken style bearing for the other side will not go further than the taper as shown in the picture. I am unable to proceed with the Woodruff key and pinion installation. What am I doing wrong?
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by DHort » Sun Aug 23, 2020 10:48 pm

The timken bearing should slide on with a little persuasion. Your drive shaft might have a burr on it that needs to be removed.

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:33 am

Done! The bearing was just slightly too tight or the shaft was slightly too large. The shaft measured 1.035 OD and the bearing measured about 1.0 to 0.998 ish so I had to do some tedious sanding to take off just a bit then tapped it on with a hammer. The hardest part was torquing it to 70 lbs then really torquing it to turn the castle nut to get the cotter pin through. Electric impacts are a god-send. Note the sexy 13 tooth pinion in the picture.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:42 am

I think you are getting the cart before the horse. What are you going to do about the worn other end? Read the info in the links I posted. good luck
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:04 am

The front end of this shaft is good, fits, the right length, etc. The one with the rust and other problems was an imposter shaft (too long, too big, weird) posing as a model T shaft that came out when I went through my Touring some years ago. Best I can tell it was from a restoration in the 1970's. I had laying around my garage and mistook it for a good one.
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Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:42 am
What are you going to do about the worn other end?

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:43 am

I am going by the first photo, not the rusty one later down the post. (you can edit that photo and put in the correct one) The suggested wear allowance is .005 and the wear in the first photo looks greater then that. (Maybe post a better photo and take some measurement to clear it up) Even if you address the U-joint area where the shaft fits thru the bushing, it looks to me that you will end up with too much clearance using a stock bushing and probably way too much if not replacing it. The replacement bushing are made to original specifications with the hole getting smaller after it is driven in and mushrooms it.
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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:52 am

Ignacio - you do realize that with that 13 tooth pinion, you have to assemble the driveshaft to the ring gear side of the axle assembly BEFORE you assemble the opposite housing ???? The pinion gear is too large to go through the opening when the halves are bolted together.

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by ivaldes1 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:59 pm

Yes I've been warned that 13 tooth is too big so you have to do one half at a time then bind the whole thing up in a crescendo of parts all having to go together at once while you keep the whole thing balanced on saw horses or the floor.

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Re: Drive shaft rust?

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:01 pm

O.K. - didn't want you pulling your hair out wondering WTH ???

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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by ivaldes1 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:23 am

Which way does the big drive shaft brass bushing go? I see a channel cut into it. Does the channel go up, down, sideways? I would presume up so when you grease it through the grease cup it goes more or less into the channel?
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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by DHort » Tue Aug 25, 2020 1:13 am

You are correct. Up. When you install it try to line up the channel with the hole you will have to drill for the grease cup.

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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by TRDxB2 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:14 am

You should press the bushing into place - not hammer it in. I made a line on the outside above the channel as a guide to see through the hole for the peen rivet. Used a long threaded rod to press the bushing into place. On the spool end I used an old ratchet to keep the rod centered and on the bushing end wrapped some cardboard around around the treadled rod to keep it centered used the old bushing to protect the face of the new one - Spool End ---(nut:washer:ratchet_----threaded rod---- cardboard roll:new bushing --] [--old busing :washer nut. lined up the mark on the new bushing with the peen hole and watched it has I tightened the nut to make sure it lined up properly.
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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by jab35 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:49 pm

Frank: That is an excellent tip, thanks for sharing, jb

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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by ivaldes1 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:53 pm

Thanks for the tip I did it exactly like that and it went in what I think is pretty well. Here is a picture. I cranked it down until it really resisted and stopped so I think it is all the way in? You can see the hole to peen the universal joint rivet in the second picture. The threaded rod I bought from Lowes was a bit expensive maybe because I bought a big thick one. I am not sure what I will do with a slightly used 5 foot threaded rod that I might use once in 10 years. The nut was large enough to push the bushing without a washer and did not hit the edge of the recess.
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Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:14 am
You should press the bushing into place - not hammer it in. I made a line on the outside above the channel as a guide to see through the hole for the peen rivet. Used a long threaded rod to press the bushing into place. On the spool end I used an old ratchet to keep the rod centered and on the bushing end wrapped some cardboard around around the treadled rod to keep it centered used the old bushing to protect the face of the new one - Spool End ---(nut:washer:ratchet_----threaded rod---- cardboard roll:new bushing --] [--old busing :washer nut. lined up the mark on the new bushing with the peen hole and watched it has I tightened the nut to make sure it lined up properly.
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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by ivaldes1 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:36 am

So I did not press the big drive shaft bushing in sufficiently. The pumpkin was already assembled so I had to pound it all the way with a big socket. It would not budge with about 2 millimeters left to align the u-joint pin so I had to shave a little off of the universal joint base to get it to fit.

Now I am wondering with the new bushing in do I have to drill a hole in the bushing at the oiler so that it gets greased? I don't see any other way. Unfortunately it is all assembled. The drive shaft is now in and I really would rather not take the whole thing apart again to take the shaft out and drill it. So I may have to drill a bit of a dimple in the shaft and won't know it is through unless I look for a color change from brass to steel. Is that going to be a problem?


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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by kmatt2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:45 pm

Yes you have to drill a hole to get the grease into the milled slot in the bushing. Center punch mark the bushing and then drill bushing at grease cup hole. Drilled hole is about the size of the hole in grease cup grease outlet. Drill slowly and don't use a lot of pressure and you should be able to feal the drill bit drop into the milled slot Stop drilling if it gets harder, you have reached the driveshaft.


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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by DHort » Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:51 pm

You will have to remove the universal so you can pull the shaft and drill the hole. You do not want to leave all those metal filings in there. 3/16" inch hole is big enough.


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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by kmatt2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:04 pm

My option is that you should be OK if you go slowly. Most of the brass shavings from drilling should stay in drill bit flutes and you can carefully clean them out. What shavings that stay in the grease are brass and shouldn't hurt. Ideality you would have done the drilling with the drive shaft removed.


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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by jab35 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:06 pm

Work some of that red bearing grease into the flutes of the drill bit and drill slowly. The grease will capture most of the chips.

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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by Mark Nunn » Sun Sep 13, 2020 10:55 am

Can't you remove the pinion housing bolts and the two radius rod nuts? Would that let you slide the torque tube off far enough to drill the bushing? The pinion housing would not be removed since it's captured.


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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by Stephen_heatherly » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:05 am

Unless you've done some work to get more power out of your engine or you have a ruckstell/ accessory transmission. I don't think you're going to be happy with that 13 tooth pinion in your car. It will greatly decrease your hill climbing ability and cause you to have to use low a lot more.

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Re: Drive shaft follies.

Post by ivaldes1 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:30 pm

Unfortunately it is a 13 tooth pinion so I have to split the halves to get it out. It is a Speedster so theoretically lighter than other models and I do plan some performance improvements on the engine. Also Texas isn't particularly hilly. :D
Mark Nunn wrote:
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Can't you remove the pinion housing bolts and the two radius rod nuts? Would that let you slide the torque tube off far enough to drill the bushing? The pinion housing would not be removed since it's captured.

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