MTFCA Forum

So this does not happen to others. Everyone is just fine, just a little pride dented.

Was showing Rick how well his new TT runs and operates and coming down a hill the accessory Rocky Mountain 6 Speed Transmission jumped out of gear and would not go back in. New emergency brakes with linings would not hold back as they were not seated in fully. A Real Run Away! Rick in the driver seat, me in the passenger, Rick yelling.., "What Should I Do"!.., me.., "Hang on and let me steer"! Aimed dead on to a pine tree thicket. Looks bad but really is not. Was able to steer it right into the trees and knock out the energy with a couple of three inch trees. Already have all the parts in the works so it will be back up and going in no time.

PLEASE FOLKS, NEVER UNDER ESTIMATE ANY T WITH AN ACCESSORY TRANSMISSION AND A NEUTRAL! ACCESSORY BRAKES ARE A MUST!!!!!!

I AM POSTING THIS AS A REMINDER AND MY MISJUDGMENT! No one was hurt.., Thank God!


Only the fenders, running boards and mounts, a little hole in the radiator, drag link and wish bone damaged. Not bad for a 35 mph impact.

Humble Hank with soiled under pants in Tin-A-See

Pretty quick thinkn' I'd say! .....'specially fer' an ol' guy!

Seriously, I'd say it's very admirable to make an incident like that an excellent object lesson and "wake-up call"for all of us as to how quick and innocently something like that can happen! And I'd also say that a lot of good can come out of posting something like this, and one other good thing (besides, thank God nobody got hurt due to your quick thinking and action) but those beautiful purple amethyst headlight lenses didn't even get a crack! Thanks so much for posting, and if "a picture is worth a thousand words",....well,....you just wrote a book! We'll never know how many similar incidents you might have just prevented,....thanks,....harold

Hank,

Thanks for posting and explaining everything, lots of newer owners/drivers DO NOT understand getting caught in Neutral and losing control.

Thank God no one was hurt other then feelings and some material metal that can be repaired.

Thank you, sir!

Experience and learn by example at it's best!

This was good thinking. It CAN happen.
That T will live again!
Main reason I won't run my TT down this hill until he has brakes, just in case the Warford comes out of gear.
No brakes what so ever on the axle, sooo....
The others have and are tested every time down.
Sure isn't the end of the world tho.

Glad you guys made out ok. A heads up for all of us. These T's must have Indy car engineering built into them the way they come apart in an accident. Quick thinking and experience prevailed in this one.

You sure have a good attitude about it. I think I would be a little more upset than you at the amount of damage, but it definitely could have been worse. With 20/20 hindsight and time to think, what would you do different, to stop the car? We should discuss emergency procedures to enact in case of situations like this. Jim Patrick

What part of my emergency procedures did you not understand? Very simple.., do not panic, have a plan prior to the event. 20 plus years in the military and being raised by stern parents got me through this! It is nothing more than metal that is repairable or replaceable. The human body is not so well as we age. Have a triple back up plan..., period! I am using my misjudgment as an example, as I was prepared but my driver was not, took control of a bad situation and we are here to tell the tale for others. Really to late to talk 20/20 hind sight.

Humble Hank still licking wounds (Sore muscles)

Sorry to upset you by suggesting we discuss it a little further. I just thought it might be a helpful learning experience to discus other ways this could have been handled, in case you were speeding toward traffic, a busy intersection, a wall, a building, or a cliff, instead of having a convenient forest of saplings to plow into to stop the car. I, too spent several years in the military and had good parents who raised me, but I don’t see how that helps to prepare one for something like this. You may call having a stand of small trees to stop you, a “procedure” but I call it luck and I don’t see how your “emergency procedure“ can be a learning experience for the rest of us, without more discussion on how to stop under different circumstances. Thanks anyway for the pictures. I hate that that happened to your T, but am glad you are okay. Jim Patrick.

Gee Hank! I am glad you guys are OK! I had a close call yesterday in my coupe. Both of these situations could have turned out much worse!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPjnhqmeIYo

Hank

Same here, glad you and friend are OK, and your quick action to find a place to land, anything to slow the decent before a hard surface!
Good work. As you noted, just metal, no bones broke!

Had my run-away experience back in May 2012, just rebuilt the 1919 and went for a spin to adj. free neutral some more.

Made 2 loops around the 'hood and just coming into the driveway, a muffled bang/pop sound, from the tranny?..but motor was running, low pedal not slowing the T driving into my driveway with the house dead ahead...whoa....no brake either.

Shut off the motor by switching off the key and sought out steering to a soft landing spot

Spied the grass to the left of the house to roll to a stop, missing the house and having enough of soft grass and dirt to slow the T to a rolling stop.

Of all things, the emergency rods were disconnected! As I was adjusting for free neutral, and the clevis were off for setting after free neutral. Normally that is done on jack stands, but that day decided to run without emergency brakes.....bad idea

Oh me. Lucky. At least was returning home into my downhill driveway when it happened. Any other place on the road at higher speed would have been more scary! (Investigated cause was spun loose pinion gear on the driveshaft, putting the transmission brake and low pedal out of commission.

Moral for me, don't leave home without emergency brakes hooked up and working.


Tracks in the grass at the side of the house where the T finally rolled to a stop on its own.

I just tuned in here. Wow! Glad you guys are fine.
My dad always used to say that if things went bad, and you had to hit something? Hit something cheap! (And preferably soft?) It may sound flippant? But it really is good advice.
Almost any time I drive, from when I was driving my grandfather's tractors on the ranch? To this very day? I consider my surroundings, and ask myself "what should I do if XX happened now?" I consider things falling off of trucks ahead of me. I think about a tree falling over. Consider some other car shooting across the lanes out of control. I ask myself "what if?" That has saved me several times. Because I have had most of those things happen a few times over the years. I did have to dodge a bicycle that fell off the back of a van that had just passed me (ever wonder how a bicycle would bounce at 70 mph? Like a football, this way that way another way and back again!). I did need to swerve around a load of lumber that slid off a truck. I have managed to avoid several out of control cars from odd directions. I always look for my "out" in case it may become needed. And when the brakes on my modern pickup blew out as a light turned red? I knew my out. No harm. No foul.
Can situations arise where there is no true out? Yes. And Hank and my dad have given good advice. Hit something soft and cheap. Cars can be fixed.
Now go out there and plan ahead!

Jim..., I spoke in hast, excuse me.

I understand now where your concern comes from and I highly agree. Emergency practices should be thought out prior to any event, What would happen if.....!

Way too many scenarios but keeping a Model T as straight as possible at higher speeds due to a heavy center of mass in motion and only making as slow as possible transitions into a ditch, guard rail (rubbing it), small trees, brush etc is a key in surviving with minimal injuries. You do not what to make quick evasive actions due to the single leaf spring system. Not our friend here. Roll overs are not good in any T as there really is no provisions for the lower weight grossly moving quickly to the top section. Most of you in the mid west with ditches everywhere on country roads would be best to strike head on single sign post and side reflective markers. Remember these bend down real good and absorb energy quickly, it is part of their design to do this. Very little damage to the car, just move your head as some sign's message boards may bounce due to faulty or old attachment. Just ideas.., things happen quickly and most important.., our old cars are old and have hidden health problems like the owners whom operate them.

Humble Hank

Hi Folks,
I feel like I need to jump in here. I, my wife Tammi and our dog Ella were blessed to arrive back home a bit ago from a very pleasant and relaxing day. We dropped by Hank's house today to drop off some piece-parts to aide in the repairs of my TT. We both had a very nice visit with Hank and Pat and we again thank you for all of your hospitality and for the awesome green peppers you cut fresh for Tammi right out of the garden. Times like we had today with good friends are what is important.
Regarding Jim's comments and questions, I must respond in order:

DAMAGED VEHICLE:
Yes, it is always disappointing to anyone to have one of your toys get torn up, but Jim, you just don't get it. We freaking walked away and nobody got hurt! In short and to keep things real, it's just rusty old metal. That said, it will certainly live again soon and going forward I will have a bit more appreciation and respect for the old slammer.

20-20 HINDSIGHT, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY:
The answer is a resounding NOTHING! Jim, there was only one option and Hank took it. When you're driving slowly and carefully down a steep grade and the auxiliary transmission jumps out of gear, the vehicle instantly starts picking up speed and you very quickly discover (maybe 2 seconds?) you have ZERO stopping ability. Believe me brother when I say it, you are on a high speed roller coaster that is out of control and it won't stop. I was in unfamiliar territory, free wheeling down a steep grade, trying to stay on a narrow country road, all the while pushing the brake pedal through the floor-board and not understanding why we were going faster and faster. Thank God Hank remained quietly-calm and literally grabbed the wheel and steered the truck off of the road and directly into a grove of young white pine trees. Next time you're going down a grade, you picture yourself calmly steering your vehicle off of the road and intentionally crashing into the trees. I reflected much about it last night and re-played the whole experience in head many times. The man has BALLS!

PLANNING OUT EMERGENCY PROCEDURES TO ENACT IN CASE OF SITUATIONS LIKE THIS:
The word is very simple. Prevention. Jim, Hank's purpose for posting our experience was not so he could run his lips publicly about this mishap. He humbled himself publicly out of his sense of service to the other folks in our T-Community. It was in an
effort to share several decades of training and experience to help educate folks to hopefully help someone else from getting injured or killed. If you didn't catch it the first time, I will repeat Hank's statement. If you are utilizing an accessory (auxiliary) transmission in a T, ACCESSORY BRAKES ARE A MUST!!!!!! I must say, I am now a believer.

Finally and on a very positive note, I want to publically thank Hank for all that he has taught, done and continues to do for me. It is difficult to put into words Hanks' incredibly high level of "old school" personal integrity and sincere service to community. I am proud to call Hank Lee my friend!

Kind Regards,

Rick

Hank, glad everyone is OK. Straightening that sheet metal will be a good learning experience for your apprentices.

I am so glad everyone is OK. Hank definitely kept his cool... I am also glad that I installed rear disc brakes over the winter.... my wake-up call came on a steep hill on last year's covered bridge tour. Live and learn - maybe it should be "learn and live..."

Thanks to all for sharing

I apologize for ruffling any feathers. After re-reading the post, I can understand the indignation at the misunderstanding that I was suggesting something else better, could have been done. Far from it! I applaud your quick thinking, resourcefulness, and courage. As a former Marine, myself, I can now see where your military training came into play, as you were considering your options, just as in battle and hoping to come out of it alive.

Twenty years ago in a heavy rain, my truck began to hydroplane. Neither the brake nor the steering worked as the truck began to spin out of control toward oncoming traffic. Resigned to whatever plan the man upstairs had for me, all I could do was hang on and enjoy the ride. Still spinning, the truck flipped on its’ left side, hit the curb of the grassy median, took out a sign, flipped upright and stopped in the middle of the median. Except for a small cut on my left arm from the shattered drivers window, I was totally unhurt. It could have been so much worse. Had someone said to me then, “With 20/20 hindsight and time to think about it, what would you have done different”? Just as you, I would say, “nothing”. I did all I could at the time and could have done nothing different, because nothing, other than what I did would have made any difference to the outcome. It was out of my hands and no amount of discussion would change that.

Again, I commend you. Jim Patrick

Very glad the two of you are ok and no was hurt.

My wife and I had a similar experience 25 years ago.
We were leaving the 4th of July fireworks at the Monroeville Mall in Monroeville Pa. with our four children in the back seat of a 23 touring we owned at the time.
We headed out of the mall complex and up a long steep hill at a good clip, when the green light at the top Of the hill turned yellow. I knew that I could not make it through the light before it turned red and quickly down shifted.
The down shift was not successful and the rear was stuck in neutral.
The car rolled forward and then started rolling backwards down the hill. It was nearly impossible to steer the car as it wanted to over steer as it picked up speed. There was a sudden impact with something behind us and we came to a stop. I checked to make sure my wife and kids were all ok then jumped out of the car to see what we hit.
I found the back end of the model T sitting up on the hood of a brand new Camaro. It was dark out but I could see that the front end and hood of the Camaro were quite dented and the driver’s side headlight was broken. By this time the guy who was in the Camaro was out and asking if we were all ok. I offered him my insurance card but he said he didn’t want it. He was in a hurry and just wanted to go. We pushed the T off the hood of the Camaro and that guy was gone before I knew it.
I often think about how life changing that night could have been and very thankful to the Lord no one was hurt.

(Lesson learned) Always physically inspect the T and TT rear axle assemblies Never take anyone’s word for it that it has been rebuilt. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been told that only to find otherwise.

Rick glad You and Hank are ok. like pilots say any crash You can walk away from is not that bad. Rick's TT photo

Thirty years ago I had a 1920 T that had original equipment and no modifications. Read no lined emergency brakes. We decided to go for a quick drive on a Sunday afternoon. Our house was on a slight incline and leaving the driveway going up the incline I noticed that the T was jerking as I drove and decided that something was wrong and we better turn around before we get caught further away from home. As I approached the decline I applied the brake and quickly noticed that there was no reaction to the speed. I was going slow at the time and thought about my wife sitting where if I wanted to exit, she would have to move. I said,"jump out now". She didn't which forced me to think quickly. I decided to rub the curb and damage the tires if nothing else. I managed to slow the T to the point I could round the turn into my street and quickly into my driveway which went up a slight incline. We jumped out and put a stone under the wheel.
Now the rest of the story. The cause of the problem was a broken drive shaft. The break was under the pressed on race that the bearing rides on at the rear of the drive shaft. The reason I felt the initial jerking was because the race kept the shaft from separating completely. When I applied the brakes the shaft separated enough so the transmission brake through the drive shaft to the rear end did not function. I was lucky. I replaced the drive shaft and put cast iron lined brake shoes on the emergency brake. I have no idea why the shaft broke and why it broke at probably the strongest part under the pressed on race. Dick C.

Years back, when I had rebuild the engine in my 1922 Fordor it was so tight, that we decided to pull it.
We managed to get it up from the basement and on the road and away we drove. Fairly quickly it fired right up, and then I signalled to the driver in the pulling vehicle just to realise that I had not yet adjusted the bands in the gearbox!!! At least not the brakeband!
I costed me 2 bended frontwingtips and a bended rod between the streering wheels.
The puling vehicle was an old VW Van so you couldn't really see the scrathes and dents

I am for one Thankful that everyone is sharing their experiences in the "Oh Crap" factors! We are all here to tell the tales for others to learn from. I am no hero, I leave those in the military where they really are in my humble ways and believes. I just took control of a situation and it was a good decision to tell the tale. We all learn from others, no one did it on their own, someone paved the roads we walk on. Old saying.., "We walk in the foot steps of giants".

I salute you All for sharing, Thank You, and God Bless!

Humble Hank

wow....hate to see a T banged up like that, but glad yall are ok.

One way to look at it is....if these cars were all sitting in musuems and never getting used, they'd never be in wrecks. And that would be more tragic than one occassionally having a crack-up

If the passengers come out unharmed and the T is repairable, then all is well.

And...it looks like that radiator apron is dinged up. You don't want that banged up thing on that nice T. Better send it to me!

This could have been much worse. Any one that has been to Hank’s place knows that this could have gone down hill fast.
Sorry Hank had to throw that in. But it really could have, he lives on one nice bluff overlooking the TN river. His road has some high drop offs on one side of the road.
Good job on keeping something bad from happening. Dan.

I have a hard enough time getting to his driveway in my 4WD modern truck.
Glad to hear all ok!

Most can't believe metal being twisted so bad can be brought back like new and even stronger by an air hammer. Here is a days work with two bad teeth (crowns going bad), OUCH!

All the general rules are in this book. A wealth of information, been using and teaching from them for over 45 years.


All the Best,

Hank in Tin-A-See

So glad you both walked away from the accident.
Good assessment and reaction.

Thanks for posting - makes us think proactively.

Kathy T

Hank,
Glad to hear all is well. Those fenders just have "character" for the next generation.
I had a similar experience with Thelma Tae, i had just gotten her on the road after a very prolonged sleep. I was quickly approaching a "T" intersection when as I began to throttle down the Universal transmission jumped out of gear. I had to act real fast and the thought of heading across two lanes of traffic and into the barrow pit did not appeal to me. I quickly check both directions and made the decision to make a quick right turn. I am sure that truck had never turned so fast, but luckily I had just gotten done rebuilding the wheels and everything held up. After the turn I pulled over wishing I had a change of drawers and then headed home. Oh and the moral to my story, don't take a test drive with out rebuilding and reinstalling the Bennett brakes.
Thanks for what you are doing with the boys, I am sure they will include this incident as a most valuable lesson.
All the best,
Kevin

Hank,

I'm very glad the two of you are and fine and no one was hurt. Always interesting hearing from you. Take care.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-BFB-The ... SwYIJd9N5i
Cheapest copy on ebay at the moment.
WOW,that poor truck!
Glad you are all ok.
BUT help me understand,how did it yank the wishbone out of the oil pan and not damage the ball socket?Or is the oil pan 1 of the parts that will be replaced?

free download of the book,After seeing what was done to those fender,I wanted to see that book!
https://inba.info/download/574c2a12b6d87f3e478b54db

I always use an APCO radius ball cap! Beautiful breakaway system and keeps perfect tension as needed. Also use them on the center link.

No damage at all to the oil pan, the front broken leaf spring did the skidding. No damage either to the front cross member.

The key to straightening bent/twisted metal is to reverse the damage as it happened. That book will explain it.

Hank

I have accidently been doing something right as I have 1 of those on all my T's and project T's.Um.

They also made APCO joints in various sizes that I not only have on my radius rod ball joint, but also have on all the ball joints on the steering linkages, as well. With an adjustable ball cap that maintains pressure on the ball, they are great in keeping the joints from becoming loose and sloppy. This makes the car safer as tight joints decrease the amount of slop in the steering system and increase the response from the steering wheel to the wheels. Jim Patrick

Agree with Jim and Hank, Excellent safety accessory!

Glad everyone got out OK. That is the biggest thing!
Walt Rosenthal, who always advocated accessory brakes and was a big booster of them, died this way, in a car that did not have them.
Things could have been MUCH worse.

And six days later..., Ready to go home.., again!

Locked the AUX transmission in low. I think Earl Shribes, Maaco, and Peach Auto Painting would be proud of that 95 year old paint match!


Hank

$19.95...... no ups, no extras !

LOOKS GREAT! Like the old Timex commercial "Takes a Licken and keeps on Ticking" or Trucking. Paint looks good. Haven't heard the name Earl Scheib in years. They were in Houston back in the sixties. Paint jobs were $29.95. Google. Earl Scheib interesting story. started painting cars after hours in a garage He owned in the late 1920s and company went world wide. their base paint job is now $399.00

Terrific recovery, Hank. Not only your save on the original incident, but also on getting the car back on the road. I especially like your action of locking the aux transimission in low.

My Dad had just completed restoration of a 1932 Pierce Arrow when he died of a heart attack. Mom elected to keep the car and wanted to be sure his fellow PA Society members got to see it. In that vein, she asked my brother and me to drive the car to a national meet in Monterey, CA.

Monterey was only three hundred miles distant, but the drive included the steepest, longest grade for the entire length of hiway 101. Cuesta Grade is 7 miles of 7% grade. We went up the grade quite well, but I was dreading the trip home in the opposite direction. 5200 pounds of vintage iron with mechanical brakes and it rolled downhill like a cannonball.

When we reached the top of the grade, my brother was driving and I was copilot. Neil sensibly shifted up into second gear at the top and I put the heel of my hand against the shift lever. Neil glanced over at me with a look that said, "Scaredy cat!"

We coasted down the 7 miles at about 45 mph. Fast enough for me. As we neared the bottom, the grade shallowed out to about 3%. Neil looked over at me and said, "See, no problem."

The instant I took my hand off the shift lever, the transmission popped out of gear. Fortunately he had time to get the trans back into high and proceeded on our way. Neither of us said a word.

I had to check my memory, Jim. My brother sanded and masked his ‘65 mustang and actually got a pretty good paint job. Woh to those who let Earl do those two things. Earl would buy these weird colors by the 55 gallon drum. Lots of primary colors, off a bit from anything the factory’s used. I have memories of being able to pick out his paint jobs on used car lots. I’m guessing now he got some really great deals from the paint makers. Hard to believe today when a gallon of red is $1000

I'm glad everyone is OK and aren't you glad you had those two boys to teach you how to fix the truck!

Ten Years ago I put together a Stag Tour and so I was the leader. Lee had his Coupe which he used to drive to high school (a few years ago). It has a Ruckstell.

On the way home I was doing about 40 mph down hill when Wham! In my mirror it looked like Lee was trying to get me to go faster. I started pumping my brakes which consisted of the service brake, Rocky Mountains and lined large drum parking brakes. In to the mix I used low then reverse when I got slow enough. Finally I got both cars slowed down enough that I was able to go across the road onto a gravelly patch on the opposite side.

Immediately after that patch the road got really steep down and twisty turney as it ran down a ridge in the forest.

Lee had broken off his shifter casting on the Ruckstell and was the second car in line on the tour. He had stock transmission brake and I think, unlined parking brake, no auxilliary brakes. He planted his T dead center on my pickup bed... so perfectly that he lost the radiator and headlights but NOT A SCRATCH on either fender and the hood popped off. Here we are ten years later and Lee Still thinks I saved his life (I didn't, it was all Rusty!).

Lee still hasn't repaired the Coupe, in fact he hasn't driven a T again! I agree with the sentiment that auxilliary brakes are essential. Without mine Lee and I would not have been able to stop before hitting the treacherous downhill stretch.

TH

BIG WOW Terry!!!!!

Could have been very bad too!

Hank

Daaaang, Hank! Fantastic work...and in only a few days! No wonder you weren’t as upset as I would have been. You are a magician. LOL! Jim Patrick

Thanks Jim.., I really hate to admit but it is a specialty in panel restoration and too boot, the two young men just finished an assignment I did for them on reversing damage on panels. They were comprehending every step perfectly. Talk about an opportunity..., accidents happen sometimes for a reasons beyond our understanding.

All the Best,

Hank

Is that the same radiator?
Amazing job!

Yes Mack it is.., believe it or not.

Looks great Hank. Your talents are many.