MTFCA Forum

Posted: **Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:27 pm**

As the title states, do they make it? Working on a hopped T gowjob and a self advancing and retarding ignition system would be great. I know the E timer does but I like the look of a dizzy in a hopped up T.

Posted: **Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:44 pm**

Would like to know what you're using now. A lot of these distributors seem to be Bosch "hybrids" if you will. If that's what you've got the chances of modifying it to accept the parts that would give you a self contained auto advance distributor are probably pretty good. Old VW distrubutor for instance. Personally I've never seen one advertised or used before but that doesn't mean a thing. They could be out there. You'd need a vaccum source too. Off the intake manifold I guess and probably a lot of messing about to get the advance just right. It's my opinion that it's possible but again I've never heard of it before.

Posted: **Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:20 pm**

If I remember correctly the VW dizzy turns backwards in a T so no auto advance. The period American Bosch dizzy for the T can be found with some having a mechanical advance.

Posted: **Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:29 pm**

The Bosch period distributor had a centrifugal advance, which only worked partially well. It still connected to the spark advance lever.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:23 am**

One of the clip on Bosch types in the 600 group was fully self advancing. For the car that drives at normal T speeds it might be ok, I drove mine a bit faster and never got the impression that there was enough advance for the upper speeds. There was no manual over ride on that type.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:32 am**

Interesting that this topic came up now. Some years ago (about 40), I made my own distributor drive for a T using a current production “dual advance”(centrifugal and vacuum) distributor. I sold the car about 25 years ago and then last Sunday I was invited to advise on some service items. The distributor worked very well and the timing was very good. I’m thinking about making another copy of this as I have found the distributor I used on Rockauto for a decent price. I will do a bit more research on the components I used.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:41 am**

Bubba's Ignition shop in Speedway Ind. makes such a unit for a T. I have one on an '11 cobjob and it works very well.

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:48 am**

Yes on the question of self "Auto" advancement. Original Bosch VW 009 distributors are either centrifugal or vacuum and turn CW where as the modern style Texas T ones turn CCW with the advancement locked down with Loc-Tite. An older Reeder distributor works very well or an Auto-Dis and I have modified them even with dual point Mallory's either with a VW replacement or for a Chevy Vega. The adjust-a-curve model works fantastic for a performance T.

Just Sayin'

Hank

Posted: **Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:49 am**

My friend Steve sold his T which had a VW distributor with a centrifugal advance. It worked well. On my car the centrifugal advance is locked so it does not work. I like being able to adjust the advance manually.

As an aside, the amount of advance needed is related to the turbulence during ignition, which increases with engine speed. So the engine naturally increases the combustion speed with increasing engine speed so that one setting of the spark advance is generally OK for different engine speeds. It may require some minor adjustment depending on the engine load or it may need more adjustment depending on the head design. That is why I like being able to manually adjust my spark advance.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:00 am**

I an presently running a Bosch clip on with cent. advance. It works quite well and gives the engine a real "rap" on acceleration. I also have a front plate original Bosch set up which appears to have some sort of built in cent. advance as well as a connection for the spark lever.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:37 am**

There is "BOSCH" (Robert Bosch GMbH as we know them Today) and then there was "AMERICAN BOSCH" which made the Model 600 distributor, Magnetos, Radios, etc . Parts are not interchangeable. Robert Bosch started the BOSCH company in Germany and at the advent of WWI the manufacturing of products here in the US was seized by the US Government and the Company here became AMERICAN BOSCH. Here is in o on the American Bosch 600 distributor.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:38 am**

and the rest of the story

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:58 am**

Jim Eubanks wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:00 am
I an presently running a Bosch clip on with cent. advance. It works quite well and gives the engine a real "rap" on acceleration. I also have a front plate original Bosch set up which appears to have some sort of built in cent. advance as well as a connection for the spark lever.

Please expand on the Bosch clip on? What is that? A modified 009? Why does the Texas T unit disable the advance? There must be a reason....

There used to a guy named Bubbuas Ignition who made a Mallory mech. Advance unit for T's. He's retired now but here the link from 2012:

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2129

Jeff

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:32 pm**

Thanks for the response guys. I'd also like to know more about the Bosch cent. advance unit. I googled Bubba's a while back as I believe that is the unit Clayton runs on his Roadster. It looks like he has pretty much retired though or at least no longer produces that unit.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:11 pm**

I'm starting to think that nearly every type of accessory or upgrade was available for the Model T. But I suppose if you bought them all you'd have spent more than the cost of a luxury car.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 1:35 pm**

AdminJeff wrote: ↑
Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:58 am
Please expand on the Bosch clip on? What is that? A modified 009? Why does the Texas T unit disable the advance? There must be a reason....

See the attachments in my previous response. The Bosch Clip on with centrifugal advance is the American Bosch Model 600. Previous forum discussion have said that the Texas T unit is distributor is a copy of the Volksbuggen 009 Bosch distributor. Making reference to a distributor as a Bosch, VW, 009, Texas T can be physically different distributors.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:40 pm**

Making a mechanical advance would not be an issue, IMHO.

My question would be:
"What is the desired advance curve?"

I would imagine the type of head, and the top speed would also be factors.
Has anyone done dyno studies on various engines to determine a basic curve?

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:51 pm**

6 degrees +/- 2 degrees BTDC @ idle. 28 degrees +/- 2 @ full advancement BTDC. Curve response is depended on cam and compression ratio used. I usually attach a vacuum meter to determine optimal curve. Old School Me!

Hank

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 2:54 pm**

Thank you sir.
What rpm would you set max advance at?

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:03 pm**

Mine is an American Bosch like the one shown in that literature above on the second page.

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:32 pm**

Too many factors of performance come into play. We have built T engines that will rev up 5,000 RPM. What are you building is the main question, ie, cam, valves, overhead, stroker, etc.

Hank

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:52 pm**

Interesting background:

The American Bosch Magneto Corporation was founded on September 6, 1906 by Robert Bosch in New York City, New York as an American division of his German operation, Robert Bosch A.G. Its industry was automobile accessories and radios and its headquarters were in New York City, New York (1906-1910) and Springfield, Massachusetts (1910-1986).

In 1918, the company's stock was seized by the government and sold at public auction and were purchased by the newly-formed American Bosch Magneto Corporation. In 1921, a separate company by the name Robert Bosch Magneto Company, Inc. was formed by former stockholders of the Bosch Magneto Company. In 1930, the two Bosch companies were merged, forming the United American Bosch Corporation. In 1942, the company was again taken over by the government until it was sold to the Arma Corporation in 1949, who changed their name to American Bosch Arma Corporation in 1954 to reflect the acquisition. The company plant was shut down in 1986

Posted: **Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:53 pm**

So I got a Vega distributor from Rockauto. Now tracking down the pair of helical gears and the shaft and bearing assembly and then I will make the housing. My motivation is to build a speedster that is easy for my wife to drive and automatic ignition advance will help.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:45 am**

Les,

Find a new Mallory dual point adjust a curve style for a Vega or VW on Tbay and re-machine the base to fit a Reeder or Auto Dis.

Hank

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:13 am**

Hank,
Why a dual point?

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:45 am**

For my Model A, I found a marine mallroy distributor, that turned the correct direction. On a model T, If your building your own drive, direction probably isn't so important. I feel that my modern distributor on my race car helps its performance greatly, 26 deg full advance at 1800. My model T's all still use coils.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:33 pm**

I like them as they last forever. Second they have an adjustable curve in and out.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 4:39 pm**

I don’t disagree with Hank, but in my case it is going on a only moderately modified T flathead (Prus head) with a T35 automatic transmission and Datsun B210 oil pump. So not really high performance but it needs to be easy to drive.
Additionally I just got a fresh remanufactured Vega distributor for about $67.00 US(I live in Canada). The drive mechanism I have a 40 year proven design that I can replicate. A pair of helical gears and a “water pump shaft”. I just might cast the housing after I get my daughter to draw it in 3D cad and get it printed in PLA plastic. Then “invest” it. And cast it at home in aluminum. Then only minimal machining needed
I will improve my skills and have some FUN!!

And nothing wrong with Hank’s approach!!

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:50 pm**

Car will eventually have an A crank, 28 chevy head 6.5 compression, hp5a carb and custom manifolds with a warford overdrive. Pressure oil is the end goal so I'm hoping to max out rpms at 3000 and no more.

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:03 pm**

Just curious, why would you want a self advancing distributor?

Posted: **Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:58 pm**

Jonah over the years I have encountered quite a few model T people that have very little understanding of the science behind what happens inside the cylinder when the spark occurs and what is the optimum spark timing for the various operating conditions that are encountered as we drive. As a example I have found that climbing a moderately steep hill in my very stock 27 roadster on mag in high gear that it helps to retard the spark halfway (and possibly richen the mixture very slightly). On a engine with higher compression the variation of spark timing becomes considerably more important to achieve optimum performance. A “dual advance” distributor reacts to both engine rpm and intake manifold vacuum.
I will leave the subject here!

Posted: **Fri May 21, 2021 7:24 pm**

Henry K. Lee wrote: ↑
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:48 am
Yes on the question of self "Auto" advancement. Original Bosch VW 009 distributors are either centrifugal or vacuum and turn CW where as the modern style Texas T ones turn CCW with the advancement locked down with Loc-Tite. An older Reeder distributor works very well or an Auto-Dis and I have modified them even with dual point Mallory's either with a VW replacement or for a Chevy Vega. The adjust-a-curve model works fantastic for a performance T.

Just Sayin'

Hank

If you all don’t mind I have a few more questions and would like to learn a little more.
This pertains to the clip on VS the Bosch front plate distributors.

I think Mark Chaffin sells the new reproduction Bosch front plate system which comes with a distributor.
Texas T sells a new reproduction clip on unit.

Do both of these use the 009 VW reproduction distributor and do they both rotate the same direction?

Is the only reason they need to rotate reverse or forward because of the centrifugal counterweights? Or is it the orientation of the points against the cam?

Otherwise why would it matter other than getting the firing order correct with the wires.

I am reading all the new and old documents I can find and trying to tie this all together.

Posted: **Fri May 21, 2021 8:57 pm**

for the past 25+ years I have used an MG distributor with vacuum advance setup on my T with no problems what so ever. Makes the car so much easier to drive especially with a foot gas pedal.

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 12:42 pm**

Just to be clear. The vintage "Bosch" distributor is best referred to as the "American Bosch" and not to be confused with Today's "Bosch" branding. The PDF contains information about the 600 Distributor

American BOSCH 600 details PDF.pdf: (721.8 KiB) Downloaded 79 times

This is a link to modify the points (expensive) to electronic http://mtfctulsa.com/Tech/distributors.htm
There is History about the seizure of the Company during WWI and afterwords .

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 1:00 pm**

Years ago I made a distributor drive for a T speedster utilizing a Vega distributor specifically because I wanted automatic advance. I am now building another one. Got the distributor from Rockauto

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 1:24 pm**

Hi Matt,
I have a Delco-Remy distributer set up for a T. It has centrifical advance. Seems to have been made by a machinest with to much time on his hands. Uses a modified cover and the factory gears to drive it. Very well made if you are interested in using the Delco-Remy style distributer.
I like working with distributers I'm currantly running a Atwater Kent Type H with a Stultz distributer on it, a Thomas with a 65 year old solid state Ign. a american bosch with a 009 bosch with no advance in it. And a stock Stultz.
Craig.

Posted: **Sat May 22, 2021 11:16 pm**

I use an Etimer on the Coupe and it has a self adjusting mode.
It’s truly a great device and makes the Coupe easy to start and run faultlessly.

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