MTFCA Forum

I am not trying to irk or annoy anyone, but I am wondering if anyone has ever put a modern OHV, OHC, DOHC head on a Model T? I am looking at the concept as original and recreated direct fit heads are expensive, the chevy OHV heads from the 20's are getting scarce and require adapters, and if anyone on here has done it since either way an adapter would need to be made, and availability of parts would be easier and much less expensive to acquire.

Suggest some research. Start with this - Model T Ford in speed and sport Paperback, 1974 by Harry Pulfer (Author)

Will do! I'm always trying to learn new things, and figured this was a topic to learn.

I would think if someone had found a modern head that would have the cylinders and valve guides line up as well as the Chevy and Olds heads we would have heard about it by now. There is certainly the possibility but many have looked hard for such an animal.
This is however the best place to ask that question and I will be interested in seeing what comes forth.
Rich

I remember Pete Aardema did something with an A and I think subaru 2.5 heads, but I haven't heard of anyone and a T block. Figured I'd ask... no harm right?

If you consider the time, effort, and expense of converting something from completely wrong... to kinda right... you might just pony up for the right head!

Not necessarily would it be expensive, it just depends on adapters, bore spacing, and what to be achieved. I mean 2.5 SOHC heads for a subaru are about $200 from most yards, and as they're aluminum, its about the adapter and connecting the cam to the crank. Would it be cheap, I dont think it would, but could you do it for less than $4500, I believe you could. There are guys out there building A's with newer technology, why not apply the idea to the T?

The big problem is that most newer 4 cy engines are smaller in displacement, say 2.0 to 2.5 L, the T is 3.0 L.. The bore CLs need to be close. I have never tried but you could check out the early Chevy Nova 4 cy, it is around 3 L and OHV. They use to run a lot of these engines on the 1/4 mile dirt tracks before the VW engines took over.

Didn't Bill Stipe, in his youngster years, adapt a small block Chevy head to a T?

Yes, he did a sbc to A... in fact he goes into great length on his site about a 327 head he cut in half and modified to the block.

I believe that you are right about the expense being relatively small... as long as a guy doesn’t value his time much, he’s money ahead!

I don't know who owned the car but remember a T with a Pinto OHC head. Only saw it once and found it interesting. OHC would be a lot easier to adapt with no concern about valve guide spacing etc. General alignment of cylinder bores could be off slightly but I'm sure there would be a lot of fun issues to work through. Way outside of my skill set. Maybe Steve Tomaso saw or heard of the car, it showed up at one of Ron Kipling's cabin on a chili feed / campout weekends.

Yes, the late Kris Watters from our Carbon Canyon Club ran around with a Pinto overhead in a T runabout - ran pretty good but one needed to see the "adapter" plate to re-align the bore to combustion chamber - it was pretty wild !

Would love to see pictures of that!

Still laughing Kevin!

The money spent in R & D, what a waste of time. Should have made heads from scratch, really! There is no simple one fits better than another, Dad even came up with using a twin cam Alfa Romeo head. A lot of work is an understatement.

Best advice, buy something already to go!

Hank

I'm still working on my "DODO" speedster........

Lovin’ it!!

Double the power... and gears to spare!!!

MORE POWER BABY..., MORE POWER! And while you are up, this beer is empty!

Oh by the way Dr. Frankenstein, You missed some calculations on how to hook up that torque tube! May I suggest two pulleys and a belt!

AandTman wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 7:16 pm

I'm still working on my "DODO" speedster........

You need a rucksell...

Looks like it has a ruckstell shifter??

FordFool wrote: ↑

Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:24 pm

Looks like it has a ruckstell shifter??

Its two transmissions behind the T.

When we look at the cylinder spacing on a Model T we see the spacing between the front pair 1/2 and rear pair 3/4 are the same.
The spacing between 2 and 3 however is quite a bit greater. This compounds the problem in finding a modern head that would fit this configuration.
I recall that someone taking a six cylinder Jaguar head, cutting it and rejoined it to the T cylinder spacing. Maybe some member has a copy of that article.
Harry Lillo

Donald, I allready have the Rajo Model 30 head now I need the 28 Chevy head and I'm ready for that double head class your in.

Converting a push rod head can be a real challenge... even one that was meant to fit can turn into quite the project...

Case in point; Putting the cam(s) on top could really snowball if you let it. I considered OHC with my Akron-Hed project at first, and only began leaning toward rocker arms after considering the effort to create a camshaft drive system that would be reliable and relatively correct in appearance.

If performance is your only concern... an open timing belt/chain might be fine. But if you intend to make it look like it was meant to be there... you could spend the rest of your life creating just the timing belt/chain cover.

Well Kevin, won't you need another challenge down the road a bit? It could be really interesting.

Don’t worry Walt... there more than a few projects on my list!

My wife tells me... “life is not about dying with the most stuff! I tell her “your right...! It about dying with the coolest stuff!”

Too Damn Funny!!!!!!

Playing catch up -

All that extra horsepower on tap would be eaten up by all the extra gearboxes!

Subaru 2.5L heads are 2 cylinders, left and right, like a VW motor. Interesting idea, but you think the pinto adapter plate would be complicated? Wooh!

Running an OHC set up and having it look authentic might be difficult, but Fronty DO's were overhead cam motors... had a fairly complicated cam chain set up. You could run a roller chain (or even a double roller chain) and it would look fairly authentic, even an open chain would work. (You'd have to lube it like a motorcycle drive chain, however) DO NOT get your finger caught in there, tho...

As an engineering project it is kind of a cool idea, but the question is, of course, what would you gain other than complexity and, yeah, complexity? A lot of the old HP pushrod heads incorporated bigger valves (and taller valve geometry) to get more breathing to the cylinders.

Here is the Aardema 4 cylinder running the subaru heads so it can be done... he reports 200hp naturally aspirated which says there are gains.. again this is discussion, but someone might decide to do this. These types of discussions have always been in the hobby because people like to go fast.

VERY cool... I had no idea that it could even be done... where can I find out more about this?

I'm assuming that at 200 ponies he's done some other significant work to this motor, but again, I want to know what? All that power is pretty awesome, but if it's main effect is to grenade a T motor then it's kind of moot point (unless I was building the ultimate T powered dragstrip sleeper)...

There is no doubt that this motor makes the list of extremely modified T engines... but I’m afraid they passed the $4500 mark loooooooong ago

I think the underlying question is whether the “other” cylinder head could be adapted without all the Bonneville modifications... at some level yes. But where does your $4500 run out...? You’ll have to tell us when yur done

Oh no doubt if you had an engine builder do this to a T, it would be probably over $15,000... but you have to commend the guy for taking parts and making power. This could be done for much less of you do a sohc, balance the internals and flywheel, use H beam rods, and use high quality fasteners. Over a high compression head, probably 20% to 30%, but you'd still need to rig up a distributor, if you did the assembly and made the adapters needed, it would be under the 4500 mark for the rajo head... the internals would be what many would do anyway for a performance T engine anyway, so I'm not including internal engine in the figures. It would be cool to see a T SOHC head kit under $4500 though.

Many years ago , Pete Smiley applied DOHC Westlake cylinder head technology to a model T block .
When the engine was finished , it looked like an Offenhouser , it was a work of art .
He did one dyno pull & made 300 hp , normally asperated ! Then he stuck it under his bench .
When he died it was sold on e-bay , and I believe the Speedway Museum in Nebraska has it .
I wish I could find the picture I had of it

Big valves, big cam and a Sherman head. Go like he'll and keep the extra money.

Andy

It's always the solid option, and most will choose that option. I mean I'll go a similar route more than likely, but for the technical minded individuals, who have the ability, it could be a great chance to gather ideas and make something awesome.

Were the Offy, Miller, Drake heads close enough to fit a T? Anyone know?

Miller, Offy and the later Drake Offys don't have cylinder heads. The cylinders and the combustion chamber are a single casting, or castings, depending on the engine in the case of the Millers.

big2bird wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:09 pm

Were the Offy, Miller, Drake heads close enough to fit a T? Anyone know?

I believe those were mono block engines. They didn't have removable heads.

Is the Joe Gemsa stuff floating around? Gallivan?

Yes.., If you have a fat wallet anything is available.

Just Sayin'

Hank

I have two 1928 chev. engines with heads that I would sell both for $400.00 or best offer???
I live in Fallbrook, Calif.
contact me if interested,
Les Von Nordheim

I have seen that engine Pete at Speedway motors. There is also a 200+ mile an hour model a salt flat car that has two Subaru heads adapted to it. Many cool Ideas. All cost lots of money. King of the hill in Lincoln Nebraska runs an original speed head. 200 hp out of a model b engine. In that run of 34 cars, I came in 2nd over all with my flat head. There were many over head cars there. Point of the story is you can make a flat head run well much cheaper than any overhead conversion. I would still love to do something like that.
Biggest problem with making power is the lower end.

I totally agree that if you want to make power like Aardema did, you have to modify the block considerably, or buy one of the new 5 main blocks; either will cost a person considerably. I personally am looking at stock style head, but I do want to go to ARP bolts and studs and balance all that I can, to give the engine the best chance at making decent power and not exploding all over. The biggest thing I am planning on doing is the modern valve kit, a 280 or 290 cam, aluminum timing gears, aluminum pistons, balanced flywheel, and the other basics to ensure a solid built engine. If I stumble across a chevy OHV near me, I'll check out adding that and forgo the modern valve kit, but I enjoy this thread, and the technical aspects that comes with the ingenuity of people.

John Warren wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:22 am

Point of the story is you can make a flat head run well much cheaper than any overhead conversion.

Ed Winfield proved that, and would agree.

Dpenry wrote: ↑

Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:28 am

.............or buy one of the new 5 main blocks;

Do you have a link? I live in a cave and am not aware of this.

If I remember correctly Les Schubert has one, you could ask him... I saw it on the HAMB and on one of the old threads here.

There is a BB Rajo on Facebook very reasonably priced.

I just wish they remade them.

Gemsa made a DO for La Rue Thomas. Timing belts I think.

I would love to see pictures of that set up.

Gemsa made a number of aluminum Gallivan/Rajo copies, but only one that I have seen ran a timing belt. That was on Thomas’ car that set the all time record at Long Beach. The car still exists but has not run since that day. 1977 I think. I have pics of it somewhere.

Hi
So I still have the patterns to make the 5 main T block. I personally have one in cast iron (of which there are more in existence) and one (and only) in aluminum!!
For these I have 5/16” lift camshafts.
For the aluminum block I have a Gemsa head.
I should caution you that I have been advised that because these are new castings I will be barred from competing in era events!!

Further to what I said above, that is why I have made a bolt in 5 main conversion for the stock T block. I have a Crower 5 main conversion crank!

Any pictures of the bolt-in 5 main? Seriously curious!

Check out the Northwest Vintage Speedster website's Technical Page. They uploaded a bunch of MTFCA articles on speedsters, endurance runs and hill climbs. Major drool factor here: https://www.nwvs.org/Technical/MTFCA/MT ... cles.shtml

Here is screen shot from one of the MTFCA articles on NWVS showing the Gemsa DOHC engine in LaRue Thomas's roadster at Long Beach.

Tom

Yup. I was there that day. Too bad they lost ins. coverage.

I have a fondness for flatheads. Here is Jerry Sherman's.

Mike Penserini wrote: ↑

Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:22 pm

I have a fondness for flatheads. Here is Jerry Sherman's.

Well today’s your lucky day Mike...! I happen to have a real nice Sherman head... and I’d be happy to trade you straight across for... say a SOHC Fronty...?

Curious... what would be the correct thickness of aluminum to make an adapter for a Honda, Toyota, etc. single and dual ohc head to the T block? I was thinking 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch as they are similar architecture to a hemi as far as combustion chamber is concerned, but anyone with experience have some insight?

The Sherman car is the fastest flathead ever to run Signal Hill. We have worked on it here. My friend owns the Thomas car pictured minus the engine. The next year that engine in a lighter car set the all time record on the hill. The car still exists, we have seen it. It has not run since that day. The only Gallivan/Rajo/Gemsa D.O. we have seen with a timing belt instead of gears.