Hard starting TT, ugh....

[Corvette Guy]

My TT is killing me. It runs great once it's started but getting it started it the problem. I've got 40,45,45,45 dry compression, 45,47,47,47 wet compression. I've got a Truefire ignition and it is timed right, before it was waaay advanced, but it started easier with more timing. I've got a new fuel filter (yes I know) as the old one was full of a fine talc / sand. I pulled the carb off and found that the float was way out of adjustment, 5/8" of an inch or so vs the 1/4" it should be (it's now fixed). It runs well with about 3/4 of a turn of the enrichment rod. It will do 23 MPH easy once started at about 3/4 throttle.

Today, I pull started it with my pickup and once started it ran great. Hand cranking not so much. It doesn't have an electric starter.

I've tried starting with various amount of choke, various amount of enrichment and all I'm doing is giving my shoulder a workout. I occasionally get a backfire through the carb which I think is due to the extra spark of the Truefire.

Maybe I need to rebuild the carb? It huffs when crank starting and raw gas will puff out of the carb in various places.

Thoughts?

[bron-hertford-nc]

Hope you are not using ethanol gas - if so drain and switch to ethanol free - available at a Marina as last resort.

[VowellArt]

You running a Kingston L-4? Never hurts to rebuild the carburetor, if for no other reason than to eliminate one problem area, but it sounds to me that there is something definitely wrong if your carb is puffing out vapor all around it (an L-4 doesn't have that many places to "puff" from).

And I'm not sure why some folks think that ethanol isn't good enough for a Model T engine to run on, mine runs fine with it, never had any problems with it. Hell the bloody thing was designed to run on anything with alcohol in it, include booze (a tad expensive that is), the damned thing will even run on Kerosene for that matter, so ethanol gas isn't really a problem.

But if won't start at where you've got your spark set, maybe you should try it a bit more advanced and see what happens. Glen Chaffin has a car that won't start with the spark lever all the way up also. He pulls if down about 4 clicks and that were it will start. Lets see you're using a True Fire, does that little magnetic pickup where the timer should be have both magnets in it (they're set 180º apart, the second one is suppose to keep it from double sparking, but I suppose it would also help it start easier also). But then I run Coils/Timer, not one of these new fangled gagets, but George Clipner does, he might know more of what could be your problem.

But this sounds to me like your fuel isn't vaporizing by the time it hits the combustion chamber, soooo, you've either got a carb problem or ignition problem which could also be spark plugs...have you pulled any of them to see their condition? Are they gaped for .030? or .032? Try .030, short spark quick response.

Always check the easy stuff first, because that's almost always where the problem is to begin with.

[CudaMan]

Scott, I replied to your PM. My Betsy runs a Kingston L4 carb and a Truefire ignition.

Mine starts fine with the timing lever fully up. My timing is set so that the #1 spark plug fires when the lever is fully up and the #1 piston is 1/8 inch down the bore after top dead center on the firing stroke (this works out to about 15 degrees ATDC). I had to make a longer than stock timing rod to achieve this while allowing clearance between the timing rod and all of the timer terminals over the full travel (see sketch).

If the temperature in the garage is above 60 deg F, I don't have to richen the mixture for starting. Below 60 deg F, I turn the mixture 1/8 turn rich for starting, then back to the normal running position a few seconds the engine has started. If I leave the mixture on 1/8 turn rich, the engine starts to labor from the rich mixture after 30 seconds or so.

If I am using the crank, I always give the crank a couple of pulls with the ignition off and the choke full on. Then I release the choke and turn on the ignition with the timing lever fully up. Occasionally I will get a free start, but usually I get a light puff of a backfire through the carb. The engine then starts on one pull of the crank. If I don't get a free start or a puff, it means Betsy is in a bad mood and I have crank more.

[Corvette Guy]

It's a NH carb. I'm running regular pump gas.

So the plan is, my neighbor guy has a TT with a good running carb. I'm going to stick his carb on my truck and see if there is a change. That will rule out a jankey carb. I kind of hope that is what it is.

Instead of working on getting it running today, I replaced two of my leaking freeze plugs with dished nickels. It wasn't that bad of a job. I'll have to wait till I get the coolant filled back up to see if they leak. I used some permetex, so I hope it doesn't. I've got to order some new gaskets too. In the process of draining the coolant, I found that someone had put in a JB welded bolt in the radiator as a plug (WTF). Nearly 100 years of farmer fixes, I guess.

Cuda, I got your message I'll try you tomorrow.

[Peter, Memphis TN]

This is going to sound like I'm hijacking the thread, but I'm trying to be helpful:

I have always advocated a different way of cranking a Model T. It's more important on one that doesn't have a starter, and even more so if you're fiddling around with the spark advance trying to find a sweet spot.

My way: Engage the crank with the handle somewhere between 1:00 and 3:00. Stand in front of the left headlight. Hold on to the radiator filler neck for support. Look at the spark lever, to make sure it's where you expect it to be. Place your right foot on the crank, and mash down. If it helps, pretend you're cranking a Harley.

There are several advantages here. In no particular order: One, it's safer. If the engine kicks back, it won't break your leg like it might do your arm; the absolute worst it can do is knock you on your arse, but that's unlikely. Two: you get a faster spin because your leg is stronger than your arm, and you're not in a hunched-over position. Three, you won't tire as easily, because your leg is stronger than your arm, and Four: you're in a standing position so it's easier on your back.

I have always advocated this method to ALL Model T owners.

[Peter, Memphis TN]

P. S. I have no opinion on ethanol gas, but I do know that STALE gas can give some of the problems you describe.

[CudaMan]

Hi Scott, Mark Strange here. I enjoyed our telephone conversation this morning. Sorry I missed your first call, I was out on the bike trail.

Along the theme of making sure that the Truefire is getting adequate power, check the terminals at the bottom of the coil box and make sure they are shiny and clean (no corrosion). Also, whatever wire runs between your 6V lantern batteries in series and the coil box should be at least the same gage as the wires attached to the timer terminals.

Other posters in the past have mentioned that the Truefire is very sensitive to low levels of input voltage/current. I have not experienced problems, but that may be because my car has new wiring harnesses and I installed the Fun Projects coil box wood and terminal replacement kits in my coil box.

[Corvette Guy]

I think I''m going to check the plug gap first, the Truefire instruction sheet says to gap them at .045" and it seems that most Model T guys gap them at between .025" and .032".

So thus far I'm looking at:
1. Try a known good carb
2. Use a bigger battery
3. Check the wiring
4. Check the plug gap
5. Check the ethanol gas
6. Try to kick start it
7. Get rid of the fuel filter

I'm back to work tomorrow so I won't have a chance to work on it till the weekend.

Thanks to all, I really appreciate all the tech support I've got from the board.

[CudaMan]

Scott, thanks for the call and the update. Glad to hear that you got your starting issues resolved.

Now that you are talking about getting a larger 12V lead/acid battery, hooking up your one wire 12V alternator, and adding wiring to your TT, here are some diagrams that may be of help. Starter equipped Ts and TTs came from Ford with 6V NEGATIVE ground electrical systems.

The first diagram is for a non-starter car (no starter, battery, or generator). The dry cells shown in the diagram were not supplied by Ford, but could be added by the user. They were the old, large 1.5V telephone batteries.

The second diagram is for a later starter car (starter, 6V battery, 6V generator, negative ground). It includes a firewall terminal block, an ignition switch, and an ammeter. The vendors sell a small bracket to hold the ignition switch and ammeter:

https://www.modeltford.com/item/INST-PAN.aspx

[John kuehn]

To Peter in Memphis.
You’ve got the right idea on cranking a hard to start starter or no starter T.
I learned that from my Uncle in the late 1950’s when I inherited my Grandfathers 24 Coupe.

If you have a low battery, carb issues and etc using this method works. It won’t wear you out and not risking a broken arm, shoulder or wrist when you get mad as he!!!! when you want it to start and start readjusting the gas and spark levers and forget you advanced the spark to much!!
Good advice!

[Corvette Guy]

Thanks to board especially; Dallas Landers, Scott Conger and Cudaman who all helped me off line, I think I've finally got it figured out. I've been chasing this non starting issue for weeks, carb, timing, compression, fuel, fuel filter, you name it.

This morning, I borrowed my neighbors good running carb and my truck would still not start. I even did the Peter style kick start which helped save my shoulder from the non stop cranking. Ugh. I remembered Cudaman talking about checking the wiring for corrosion and such and I remembered when I bought the truck my friend started it with a jump pack. It's worth noting that I have been running the Truefire off of 2 six volt lantern batteries in series. Thinking that might be the problem, I got out a set up jumper cables and hooked up my pickup to the wires on the TT and it started on the 3rd pull. The coils even sounded different, I looked at the neighbor guy and we were like what the heck? I turned it off and when I turned it back on I got a free start, what? I ended up repeating it and got 2 more free starts, all with the timing fully retarded, this is unheard of. The one time I turned it off and didn't get a free start it started on the first pull. For further testing, I hooked the dry cell batteries back up and it wouldn't start. I'm thinking the dry cells didn't put out enough current to run the ignition, especially with the colder temps and usage.

You have no idea how frustrating this has been, I was afraid to take the truck anywhere as I was afraid it wouldn't start if I stalled it or needed to turn it off.

[Dallas Landers]

Good to hear Scott! Sounds like you have a well tuned engine after chasing everything. Free starts are great fun. Now you can drive it anywhere and be confident. Enjoy and show off that TT.

[Steve Jelf]

I used some permetex...

I hope it wasn't the original stuff.

I found that a few years of hot coolant turned it hard, brittle, and leaky. After that I used Permatex Ultra Black. So far it has been OK.

[Corvette Guy]

The old freeze plugs were some leaky brass ones put in by the previous owner.

It's worth noting that my neighbor guys truck had a pin hole leak in the middle freeze plug that would shoot water out about 3 feet due to his water pump. He pulled them out yesterday and they were steel and if they weren't leaking at the time, they would have in a short time.