‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules
User avatar

Topic author
Dan B
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Blaydon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: PA

‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Dan B » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:04 pm

I have a ‘23 with a large drum (‘26-‘27) Ruckstell. I discovered that the drivers side rear hub gets hot after driving. When I removed the wheel to investigate I found that the brake shoe is not being held concentric by the four tabs in the backing plate. There is a lot of play which is allowing the shoe to move around and rub against the drum.

I am thinking that the shoe itself may be sprung and should be a tighter fit in the tabs to restrict movement. The tabs themselves are in great shape and not bent.

Does anyone have any experience with this?
Attachments
11C569C7-F706-4E4C-A04D-B053CA9DC584.jpeg
1923 Touring

User avatar

JohnH
Posts: 344
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:57 pm
First Name: John
Last Name: Hunter
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Geelong Tourer
Location: Blue Mountains, Australia
Board Member Since: 2002
Contact:

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by JohnH » Sat Oct 03, 2020 2:15 am

The shoe should float in the four tabs. Once the drum starts rotating, it will cause the shoe to find its own centre. If the drum is hot, I would be checking the adjustment of the brake rod. With the rod disconnected at the clevis pin, it should be possible to turn the wheel freely with no drag.
The only time I've had a dragging brake is when the spring broke, causing the shoe to spring outwards against the drum.

User avatar

Topic author
Dan B
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Blaydon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: PA

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Dan B » Sat Oct 03, 2020 6:14 am

As it is now, there is enough play that I can move the shoes in the up or down direction and the linings will over hang the backing plate by an 1/8” or more. It seems to me that if the shoes can move by that much in the retracted position, they would rub on the drum without any chance of being recentered by the drum.

I did check the brake rods and they are adjusted as they should be.
1923 Touring

User avatar

DanTreace
Posts: 3299
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:56 am
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Treace
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: '23 cutoff, '25 touring, '27 touring
Location: North Central FL
MTFCA Number: 4838
MTFCI Number: 115
Board Member Since: 2000
Contact:

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by DanTreace » Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:27 am

Guess you could try to flip that shoe over to see if it is bent, just laying it on a flat surface would tell you which side is may be bent a bit. Or use a new spring, as posted the shoe should float. A bent axle would force the drum against the shoe.
The best way is always the simplest. The attics of the world are cluttered up with complicated failures. Henry Ford
Don’t find fault, find a remedy; anybody can complain. Henry Ford

User avatar

Mark Nunn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Nunn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
Location: Bennington, NE
MTFCA Number: 50321
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Mark Nunn » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:46 am

Check that the shoe is round with no high or low spots. The low spot will typically be 180 degrees from the cam. Remove the shoe and lay it in your drum. High and low spots will be apparent. I had to adjust my shoes to stop brake drag. To fine tune my new linings I rubbed soapstone on the inside of the drums, installed the drums (I have wires which makes this easy) and rotated them to transfer soapstone to the high spots. Careful refinement of linings with a rasp made a huge improvement.


RGould1910
Posts: 973
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:16 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Gould
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 touring, 1912 roadster , 1927 roadster
Location: Folsom, CA

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by RGould1910 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:07 am

Common to see 26-27 brake drum shoes out of round. I've been fortunate to find a few for my purposes that at are true. I suppose they can be trued but never tried it. I suspect you'd have to remove the liing and use heat.

User avatar

Topic author
Dan B
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Blaydon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: PA

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Dan B » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:34 pm

Thanks guys. Makes sense. Checking them for roundness will be my next step
1923 Touring

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4956
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Mark Gregush » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Just look at the lining and shoes for wear or rub marks. Maybe there are some high spots. Unless you are using them for service brakes, they are just parking brakes.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Norman Kling
Posts: 4069
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:39 pm
First Name: Norman
Last Name: Kling
Location: Alpine California

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:52 pm

Can you see a place on the lining which shows more wear! If not concentric, the spot which is dragging should show more wear than the rest. Another thing to check is the edge of the shoe against the drum. You can usually detect this by finding a wear groove on the inner edge of the drum. This can happen when the taper in the axle or hub is worn which pulls the drum toward the shoe. To correct this problem, place a tapered shim between the axle and the hub.
Norm

User avatar

Mark Nunn
Posts: 1105
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:01 am
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Nunn
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Runabout
Location: Bennington, NE
MTFCA Number: 50321
Board Member Since: 2017

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Mark Nunn » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:25 am

rgould1910 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 11:07 am
Common to see 26-27 brake drum shoes out of round. I've been fortunate to find a few for my purposes that at are true. I suppose they can be trued but never tried it. I suspect you'd have to remove the liing and use heat.
I didn't use heat to make my shoes round and I did it with the linings on. Maybe it was barbaric but I laid my shoes crosswise over an open vice and tapped on the low spots. The vice jaws were about 3" apart. I hammered from the inside of the shoe between the jaws.

User avatar

Topic author
Dan B
Posts: 235
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 1:53 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Blaydon
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: PA

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by Dan B » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:40 pm

Norman Kling wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:52 pm
Can you see a place on the lining which shows more wear! If not concentric, the spot which is dragging should show more wear than the rest. Another thing to check is the edge of the shoe against the drum. You can usually detect this by finding a wear groove on the inner edge of the drum. This can happen when the taper in the axle or hub is worn which pulls the drum toward the shoe. To correct this problem, place a tapered shim between the axle and the hub.
Norm
I did check to make sure it wasn’t the shoe rubbing on the drum. Marked the inside of the drum with chalk and went for a drive and the marks were still there afterwards. I just rebuilt this Ruckstell with the new longer axle shafts so I was certainly hoping I wouldn’t have to revert to adding shims.

I checked for roundness of the shoes inside the drum and there does not appear to be any high spots. Unfortunately I’ve been using them as a service brake to stop when needed so it’s hard to tell from the wear on the linings. The linings themselves are original and very saturated with oil and grease from over the years. We are wondering whether this is contributing to the condition since they would appear to grab and create more friction due to their tacky nature.

I tried to take a closeup of one of the tabs so you can see how much play is there. This is with the shoe pushed all the way up. I can understand that they float but again I’m surprised it would be this much. I have nothing else to compare it to though.

I don’t know how long this condition has persisted. I went for the first drive after freshly rebuilding the entire Ruckstell and was feeling around for warm spots. The axle housings themselves, bearing areas, etc are cold. Just the drum on the one side. It’s warm but not so hot that you can’t touch it. So this could have been going on for a long time.
Attachments
EC3882AB-7BA2-4A4F-B712-23918213F01F.jpeg
1923 Touring


big2bird
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:57 pm
First Name: Jeffrey
Last Name: Hausey
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: Early 23 Touring
Location: Anaheim, Ca.
MTFCA Number: 51193
Board Member Since: 2020

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by big2bird » Sun Oct 04, 2020 12:43 pm

Switch sides. See if the issue moves.

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4307
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: ‘26-‘27 Brake Shoe Alignment

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:18 pm

Looking at the "rivet job" on the backing plate, it appears those have been "worked over" and the tab does seem be exaggerated.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic