I was pleased to visit Dennis Flemings home during the Luray meet. He recently acquired a very nice'14 runabout. This one has the built in tool box at the rear of the gas tank. I have a '13 that is the same. Mine is a Fisher. I wonder if his is too? Another technical question: Do the '14 tops taper into the back at the rear bow like the '13's do?
Back to the '14 runabouts. I have a friend that has two of them, and neither have the toolbox. Are there three or four body makers in 1914?
1914 Runaouts
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Original Smith
Topic author - Posts: 3298
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
If I recall correctly, there were at least five companies supplying bodies to Ford in 1914 and '15. Beaudette was the largest supplier those years, I think Fisher and Wilson supplied a lot, but Wilson was basically on the way out with Ford. Fisher supplied a lot of the sedans, couplets and coupes for many years yet. The '24 coupe I had was a Fisher body. There were at least two others, but I don't recall their names offhand, and some time ago lost the bookmark to the thread I used to reference.
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Model T Mark
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
Between my dad and I there are 3 14 roadsters and two have the tool box and one doesn’t. I rewooded the one I’m restoring with a tool box because it had one.
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Hap_Tucker
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
Wayne has a good summary. Some additional reference information that was posted on the older forum:
From the May – Jun 1971 page 5 – 11 "The Vintage Ford" article on a
1914 Fisher Bodied Model T Touring.
The Motor Number is
495676; the Car Number is 462926.
And it shipped on/around Apr 21, 1914
In 1971 the owner was Ray Martin, of Burbank,
California. He was the third owner. Ray purchased the
car in 1969 and, other than routine repairs, has
kept it pretty much “as found.” As far as I know, his son Wayne now has the car. An article was published about it again in "The Vintage Ford" within the last 15 or so years. (If anyone know which Month & Year "Vintage Ford" please remind us.)
In the article they published photos of the tags shown below which came with the the are when it was purchased new:
The two tags appear to have duplicate
Information but a few differences.
The first (upper tag) had the following Body manufacturers listed:
Pontiac
Fisher
Wilson
Herbert
Monroe
Ford
Of those listed we have surviving examples of:
Pontiac – Beaudette - seven 1914 Tourings
Fisher – five 1914 Touring references including the very accessory laden but otherwise authentic and unrestored body that had the tags shown above.
Wilson – one 1914 touring (SC State Museum)
Herbert – Five “H” marked 1914 touring – but still not sure if it is Hayes or Herbert
Monroe – not sure – we have one Roadster/Runabout with “M/B” stamped on the front seat heel panel – we assume it is Monroe – but we do not have clear documentation like the Beaudett, Fisher, Wilson cars/
Ford – while it is listed on the tag, we know from Trent’s research that Ford USA did not start making bodies at the Highland Park until 1915.
Trent provided the following documentation for that:
“There were no Ford manufactured touring car bodies before 1915. The cost accounting books in Acc. 625 make it clear that the first body operations Ford Motor Company ever undertook was painting and upholstering and that was not until the beginning of 1914. Prior to that date, all bodies received by Ford came “Painted and Finished”. In the Ford Methods and the Ford Shop Arnold and Faurote clearly state that painting and upholstery work did not begin in earnest until the first two of the six story buildings were available beginning August 20, 1914. Sometime after that date they write “The body wood-working machinery is now being installed on the north-building top floor, and lumber dry-kilns are nearing completion east of the new building…” All Model T bodies supplied before body manufacture actually began at Highland Park were made by Beaudette, Hays, Fisher and others.”
The second tag also included the body maker Hayes. As mentioned above I do not know if both Hayes and Herbert placed an “H” on the front seat heel panel of their bodies. We have 5 with an “H” there but it needs further research.
Body finishers listed are:
Pontiac
Briggs
American
Herbert
Ford
Detroit
Top manufacturers listed are:
American Auto Trim
Apple
Detroit Motor Company
Iroquois
Taylors
Warner
Am. J.
Wayne’s car, which had the tags is a Fisher body; finished by
American; with a Detroit M.C. top
The body number
is 148429 and is not the same as the motor number.
Under “Finishers,” K.&A. appears; Detroit does
not. Under “Tops,“ Rands is listed but Am. J. does
not appear.
A fourth ticket, called the “Inspectors Ticket,”
lists the body style, special equipment and the
Motor and Car numbers. The Motor Number is
495676; the Car Number is 462926.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
From the May – Jun 1971 page 5 – 11 "The Vintage Ford" article on a
1914 Fisher Bodied Model T Touring.
The Motor Number is
495676; the Car Number is 462926.
And it shipped on/around Apr 21, 1914
In 1971 the owner was Ray Martin, of Burbank,
California. He was the third owner. Ray purchased the
car in 1969 and, other than routine repairs, has
kept it pretty much “as found.” As far as I know, his son Wayne now has the car. An article was published about it again in "The Vintage Ford" within the last 15 or so years. (If anyone know which Month & Year "Vintage Ford" please remind us.)
In the article they published photos of the tags shown below which came with the the are when it was purchased new:
- 000_clip_image002.gif (153.59 KiB) Viewed 2691 times
Information but a few differences.
The first (upper tag) had the following Body manufacturers listed:
Pontiac
Fisher
Wilson
Herbert
Monroe
Ford
Of those listed we have surviving examples of:
Pontiac – Beaudette - seven 1914 Tourings
Fisher – five 1914 Touring references including the very accessory laden but otherwise authentic and unrestored body that had the tags shown above.
Wilson – one 1914 touring (SC State Museum)
Herbert – Five “H” marked 1914 touring – but still not sure if it is Hayes or Herbert
Monroe – not sure – we have one Roadster/Runabout with “M/B” stamped on the front seat heel panel – we assume it is Monroe – but we do not have clear documentation like the Beaudett, Fisher, Wilson cars/
Ford – while it is listed on the tag, we know from Trent’s research that Ford USA did not start making bodies at the Highland Park until 1915.
Trent provided the following documentation for that:
“There were no Ford manufactured touring car bodies before 1915. The cost accounting books in Acc. 625 make it clear that the first body operations Ford Motor Company ever undertook was painting and upholstering and that was not until the beginning of 1914. Prior to that date, all bodies received by Ford came “Painted and Finished”. In the Ford Methods and the Ford Shop Arnold and Faurote clearly state that painting and upholstery work did not begin in earnest until the first two of the six story buildings were available beginning August 20, 1914. Sometime after that date they write “The body wood-working machinery is now being installed on the north-building top floor, and lumber dry-kilns are nearing completion east of the new building…” All Model T bodies supplied before body manufacture actually began at Highland Park were made by Beaudette, Hays, Fisher and others.”
The second tag also included the body maker Hayes. As mentioned above I do not know if both Hayes and Herbert placed an “H” on the front seat heel panel of their bodies. We have 5 with an “H” there but it needs further research.
Body finishers listed are:
Pontiac
Briggs
American
Herbert
Ford
Detroit
Top manufacturers listed are:
American Auto Trim
Apple
Detroit Motor Company
Iroquois
Taylors
Warner
Am. J.
Wayne’s car, which had the tags is a Fisher body; finished by
American; with a Detroit M.C. top
The body number
is 148429 and is not the same as the motor number.
Under “Finishers,” K.&A. appears; Detroit does
not. Under “Tops,“ Rands is listed but Am. J. does
not appear.
A fourth ticket, called the “Inspectors Ticket,”
lists the body style, special equipment and the
Motor and Car numbers. The Motor Number is
495676; the Car Number is 462926.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
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Wayne Sheldon
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
Thank you so much Hap T for clearing this up! I always enjoy your postings and excellent record keeping. I have already bookmarked this thread so that hopefully the next time I want the information, I can find it.
Just to be clear. I am not the "Wayne" that got his dad's '14 touring car. I am restoring what is believed to be an original early 1915 runabout body to an assembled mostly correct parts chassis. To that end, I have paid particular attention to details in the late brass era Ts in an effort to get mine as close to right as I can. Mine is not a car that should be consulted for a lot of details, as it was badly messed with decades before a good friend of mine got it. He in turn made me a wonderful offer for which I am very grateful. I already at that time hade the pile of correct parts for the chassis. I suspect my runabout is a Beaudette (Pontiac) body, but I can't even know that for certain. The original date code tag looks like a Beaudette, but no "B" anywhere to be found. I have read that is not unusual. I also read several years ago that one other body supplier used steel number tags very similar to what Beaudette used, however I do not remember who that was. The tag was nailed and held by very old rusty nails onto the original floor sill wood. When I re-wooded the body a few years ago, I kept that original sill piece, but nailed the tag onto the new wood (there wasn't enough of it left to keep the wood in the body). Other sheet metal details indicate an early body. However, some things including the cowl piece had been changed to later pieces years earlier.
I don't get to spend much time working on it these days, but it is shaping up fairly nice. Never to be a show car, I just want it to be a decent looking (and mostly correct!) runner.
Just to be clear. I am not the "Wayne" that got his dad's '14 touring car. I am restoring what is believed to be an original early 1915 runabout body to an assembled mostly correct parts chassis. To that end, I have paid particular attention to details in the late brass era Ts in an effort to get mine as close to right as I can. Mine is not a car that should be consulted for a lot of details, as it was badly messed with decades before a good friend of mine got it. He in turn made me a wonderful offer for which I am very grateful. I already at that time hade the pile of correct parts for the chassis. I suspect my runabout is a Beaudette (Pontiac) body, but I can't even know that for certain. The original date code tag looks like a Beaudette, but no "B" anywhere to be found. I have read that is not unusual. I also read several years ago that one other body supplier used steel number tags very similar to what Beaudette used, however I do not remember who that was. The tag was nailed and held by very old rusty nails onto the original floor sill wood. When I re-wooded the body a few years ago, I kept that original sill piece, but nailed the tag onto the new wood (there wasn't enough of it left to keep the wood in the body). Other sheet metal details indicate an early body. However, some things including the cowl piece had been changed to later pieces years earlier.
I don't get to spend much time working on it these days, but it is shaping up fairly nice. Never to be a show car, I just want it to be a decent looking (and mostly correct!) runner.
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George House
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
For what it’s worth; my 1914 runabout was made by Beaudette. They embossed their ‘B’ on the front of the seat riser. You may see the vertical midway bead to the right of the B in this picture..
- Attachments
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I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
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Original Smith
Topic author - Posts: 3298
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
There is a guy up north that has a '13 roadster with a Monroe body.
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Dennis Fleming
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
Larry,
There is nothing stamped on the riser nor any numbers and or letters stamped in the wooden front cross member under the seat. As I had mentioned to you some of this was replaced years ago and I think the numbers were lost to history.
There is nothing stamped on the riser nor any numbers and or letters stamped in the wooden front cross member under the seat. As I had mentioned to you some of this was replaced years ago and I think the numbers were lost to history.
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nsbrassnut
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
A side note.
Fisher Canada was established about 1913 in Canada and became the primary (and perhaps only) supplier to Ford Canada for bodies.
My '15 Fisher bodied T roadster also has the tool box behind the gas tank. The Canadian roadster bodies are different than the US ones and are fully wood framed and closer in construction style to the US '14 bodies. But the body metal skins are shaped differently than the US roadster bodies, besides the difference of having two vs one door. A couple brothers in Ontario have built upwards of two dozen plus of those bodies and they are well built, but different.
By the way, there are several '15ish restored roadsters running around in Canada which actually have reproduction roadster bodies and those do not have the tool box behind the gas tank. They are easy to spot as the rear quarters of the tubs are made differently with no compound curve, different style of wood construction and are easy to spot when you have seen both.
Drive Safe
Jeff
Nova Scotia
Fisher Canada was established about 1913 in Canada and became the primary (and perhaps only) supplier to Ford Canada for bodies.
My '15 Fisher bodied T roadster also has the tool box behind the gas tank. The Canadian roadster bodies are different than the US ones and are fully wood framed and closer in construction style to the US '14 bodies. But the body metal skins are shaped differently than the US roadster bodies, besides the difference of having two vs one door. A couple brothers in Ontario have built upwards of two dozen plus of those bodies and they are well built, but different.
By the way, there are several '15ish restored roadsters running around in Canada which actually have reproduction roadster bodies and those do not have the tool box behind the gas tank. They are easy to spot as the rear quarters of the tubs are made differently with no compound curve, different style of wood construction and are easy to spot when you have seen both.
Drive Safe
Jeff
Nova Scotia
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Original Smith
Topic author - Posts: 3298
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
This is the reason I posted this! At the moment, it appears only Fisher and Monroe installed tool boxes in back of the gas tank. I have a friend that has two '14 roadsters, and neither one of them even have room for the tool box in back of the gas tank!
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George House
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- Board Member Since: 1999
Re: 1914 Runaouts
I forgot to add, my ‘14 Beaudette runabout (pic in this thread) has the rectangular area to the rear of the gas tank that you’re calling the tool box. I only use it for the battery; tools in the turtleneck.
I don’t know why I turned out this way. My parents were decent people.
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Sheri
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
I think the compartment behind the tank was for the side curtians. That way you dont have to get out of the car to get them after its already raining.
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Original Smith
Topic author - Posts: 3298
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Re: 1914 Runaouts
Mark: I believe you are right, but you would be surprised at what you can pack in there. I have side curtains a battery, and tools plus a spare timer.