Crank modification????

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Jonah D'Avella
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Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 7:47 am

I was wondering if anyone thought that removing the crank from my engine, and boring a whole in it at a 45 degree angle difference so that I could crank farther without pushing down on it was a good idea? Here is an edited photo with the original crank position in yellow vs the modified position in red.
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F: first F: find
O: on O: oil
R: race R: revive
D: day D: drive

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Tim Rogers
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Tim Rogers » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:05 am

Jonah- I'm not entirely sure what you are asking but the hand crank has no defined position. You can position it wherever you want prior to starting the car.
<o><o><o><o> Tim Rogers - South of the Adirondacks - Forum member since 2013 <o><o><o><o>


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:15 am

Basically, my theory is that if the handle is rotated 45° different, I will be able to crank two exploding cycles in one crank without pushing down on the crank and it might start better without damaging my arm.
F: first F: find
O: on O: oil
R: race R: revive
D: day D: drive


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:21 am

I can position the crank but not the engine.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Tim Rogers » Fri Oct 16, 2020 8:34 am

If everything is up to snuff on your engine it will start easily with a quarter turn of the crank. Are you having trouble getting it started? Some things to consider:

* do a compression check- Ts are notorious for worn out vales and seats. 55 PSI per cylinder would be great
* prime the engine prior to switching on the ignition
* richen the carb before for starting
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:18 am

If usually starts fine, and the compression is excellent, but it is an unrestored vehicle that has been sitting for 40 years.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by mtntee20 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:05 am

Jonah,

Look up and read some of the many posts on this forum addressing how to crank a Model T. There are several different methods. Some seem to be safer than others. I suggest you try the safe ones and see what works for you. I use my left hand cupped (not grabbing with thumb around the crank handle), facing the radiator, right hand on the left front tire (driver's side) and use my legs, left arm (on the crank), and right arm (on the tire) to get a good quick, hard pull on the crank. This works for many and does not work for many. You have to figure out what works safest and best for you.

Good Luck Buddy,
Terry


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:08 am

Thanks, I so far have found that that way works best for me , but it is still hard to start.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:20 am

In the past 100+ years there have been millions of Model T's that started easily on a quarter turn, with no alteration of the crank. So your idea, even if it works, is a band aid for a problem that should be fixed. Your T should start like this, with no alteration in the crank: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pv6HWWOGYA.

Yes, I know. It's easier said than done. But your T can be fixed to start easily. My suggestion is to get all the necessary elements up to snuff and enjoy the results.
The inevitable often happens.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by jab35 » Fri Oct 16, 2020 11:42 am

Jonah: Read the Model T Joke thread below, it's a very factual answer to your inquiry. jb


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Humblej » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:46 pm

Jonah, no need to reposition the crank on the crankshaft, with the key off engage the crank and turn the crank to where you want it for starting, then start it from the new position.


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Oct 16, 2020 1:52 pm

I have read on the forum that some crankshafts do not have the hole for the pin which holds the pulley drilled in the same place. All that I have seen have it in position where number 1 spark comes just after the pulley passes the straight across position with the lever retarded. So if your crank is like that, it is standard. I find that if I start pulling up the crank at about the7 o clock position it will complete the exhaust stroke at about 10 o clock and then come up on compression about 1 o clock. I can get two compression strokes on one pull. As soon as the crank begins to pass 12 o clock I set go. and immediately raise my arm out of the way. \
On a cold engine I always raise the spark lever to retard, the gas lever down about 1/4 of the way, then with the ignition key off, I open the fuel mixture needle one quarter turn counter clockwise. I choke through 3 intake cycles and then turn the key to battery. Sometimes I get a "free" start. If not I crank one upward pull with the left hand fingers around the crank but not the thumb. Raise the arm out of the way. Usually it will start right up. If not I try another pull up. If it doesn't start with 2 upward pulls, I turn off the ignition switch and turn the crank all the way around a few times then turn on the switch to battery and try to start again. The reason for turning off and cranking around if few times is in case I accidentally flood the engine that will remove some excess gas from the cylinders. On a hot engine, such as after stopping to fill the tank, I just retard the spark and crank without any choke.
Another thing to do if it starts up is to quickly run around and advance the spark and turn the key to magneto. This will keep it running until it warms up. When it warms up, you can make a fine adjustment of the carburetor to find the sweet spot.
Norm

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Re: Crank modification????

Post by DanTreace » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:18 pm

Jonah

Your post brought this old 'Hint' from Ford Owner magazine to mind......the crank handle is heated with a torch and bent to bring the pin hole for the retaining pin in the crank ratchet 'in-line' with the grip handle of the crank handle. Places the handle in a better spot to achieve easy start as you desired. Guess it works or did for the submitter in 1919, a Mr. O.D. Chrowl of Dowagiac, MI. ;)



IMG_3152.jpg
Last edited by DanTreace on Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:23 pm

I have a spare crank an I am going to experiment with that.
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O: on O: oil
R: race R: revive
D: day D: drive


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Roz » Fri Oct 16, 2020 3:32 pm

Jonah, regarding your original question, when you are hand cranking the engine, you will only get a compression stroke every half revolution of the hand crank. It takes two complete revolutions to get all four cylinders over a compression stroke. You will not be able to crank it over two compressions without pushing down on the crank no matter how you bend it or reposition the ratchet on the end by drilling another hole for the pin. I see what you are trying to accomplish, but I'm afraid it just won't work.


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by jiminbartow » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:07 pm

Go ahead and try it, Jonah. Sometimes the only way you can determine whether or not something is going to work is to try it and see for yourself. If it works you can report your success. If it doesn’t, you’ll be able to analyze it and determine why it did not work. The best way to learn something is to demonstrate it to yourself, instead of asking.


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Virtus » Fri Oct 16, 2020 6:26 pm

Jonah, I would like to second the advice James has given you.I have spent my working life with tractors and diggers, driving , mending and eventually owning a fleet of dumpers and excavators. I had no formal training and didn't come from an engineering background but I listened to those who questioned accepted practices. Looking at problems from an unbiased and often uneducated view point often produced an easier solution.
Jonah, I like your style, carry on as you are and you will go far!


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Original Smith » Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:27 am

Since your car has a starter, why are you worrying about the crank????


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:06 am

I rather hand starting it than using the electric one.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Norman Kling » Sat Oct 17, 2020 11:37 am

Doing it yourself rather than asking questions might be just fine on something inexpensive such as altering the crank. However since Henry made so many the same way, it would be presumed that he had determined which way works best. However just as every Model T is not quite the same, so we as people are not all the same.
I would, however, recommend that on anything expensive such as engine rebuilding, or transmission rebuilding, you do your research and also ask local Model T owners and perhaps ask also how dependable their cars are for lasting and touring. Then make your own decision as to which way to go. Remember that the car as Henry built it was very dependable but he did things to keep the price down. All the parts were made to work together, and when you change something you might cause an unintended strain of other parts. Now the position of the crank might not cause a problem with the way the car runs, but it could cause a strain on your arm. Anyway, I like the way you have a spare crank and will experiment with one while leaving the other as it was made.
An example of something similar, I put Ruckstell axles in all my T's, however I kept one original axle assembly so If I have a problem with the Ruckstell, I can quickly change the axle back to standard while I have the Ruckstell out for repairs I can still drive the T. Etc.
Good luck with your car and remember to be safe.
Norm


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Allan » Sat Oct 17, 2020 5:57 pm

Jonah, if you do decide to alter the cranking angle, rather than re-drill the crank handle, it is simpler to re-drill the dog on the end. Set it in the position you want and drill one side only at first. Then fit the dog to the handle and line up your newly drilled hole with the hole through the handle. Then you can drill through your new hole and the crank hole will keep the drill in line as you drill the other side.
Hope this helps,
Allan from down under.


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by DHort » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:30 pm

Jonah. In the first sentence in the first post you mention pushing down on the crank. You should never ever be pushing down. Good way to break your arm or your shoulder.


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Jonah D'Avella » Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:35 pm

I am trying to crank better with still being contentious.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Charlie B in N.J. » Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:27 am

As I see it you have 2 great suggestions here. 1; bend a spare crank and 2; re-drill a spare dog. Leave the crank itself alone.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by TonyB » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:22 am

I don’t believe moving the hole on either the crank, dog or crankshaft will not do what you wrote in the first thread. There are two compression on each revolution of the crankshaft. It follows that there will be one compression for each half turn of the crankshaft.
You can move the alignment as to where you get the compression on any half crank but you cannot get two compressions on half a rotation. 😊
Neat idea but I’m afraid it will not work.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Tim Rogers » Sun Oct 18, 2020 9:40 am

The position of the hand crank is dependent on the position of the engine crankshaft. Bending, twisting or re-drilling the hand crank will not alter this fact.

As stated earlier, with the ignition off just position the hand crank where you want it by rotating the crankshaft.
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by Joe Reid » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:04 pm

Fix the starter and use that. Much easier,


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by jiminbartow » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:29 am

As has been said several times in this thread, you can position the crank at any position you want by engaging the ratchet and lifting on the crank to get it just right, but beware. If your engine is well adjusted and starts easily, your engine could roar to life as soon as it makes contact with the first spark coil it causes to buzz. By the same token, it could also backfire under the same circumstances of positioning the crank at precisely the position You desire, however, if your arm is in the way when the crank spins around in a counterclockwise direction and smashes into your arm, one or more times, you will be spending Thanksgiving in a cast. Positioning the crank should not be made more complicated or important than it is. Position it at 7:00 and crank it. It is not complicated. Be careful and stay safe. Jim Patrick


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Re: Crank modification????

Post by D Stroud » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:20 am

Leave the crank alone, it has worked for over 100 years as is just fine. JMHO Dave
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Re: Crank modification????

Post by bobt » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:32 am

Jonah, I had the same idea with my friends 1913 T. When I would try to start it by pulling the crank straight up ,it would stop at the twelve o'clock compression stroke. I explained as not getting "over the hill". All I did was change my cranking position. Instead of pulling straight UP with my left hand (9:00 to 12:00) I would pull at a angle about 9:30 to 1:30) and this worked for me. On MY 1915 T' I still pull straight UP and it starts fine. I hope you understand what I'm trying to say. bobt

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