Big Timing Gear

Discuss all things Model T related.
Forum rules
If you need help logging in, or have question about how something works, use the Support forum located here Support Forum
Complete set of Forum Rules Forum Rules

Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Big Timing Gear

Post by blgitn » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:00 pm

Can anybody identify the metal timing gear pictured? The number on it is: T415B and looks to be in pretty good condition. I can't locate any reference to that number.

Given the choice, would you install the used metal one of the new nylon one?

R/ Roger.
Attachments
PXL_20201017_182908278.jpg

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Steve Jelf » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:28 pm

415B is the factory number for part #3047B. The parts book says you can use it for all years 1909-1927.
After my bad experience with the failure of a nylon timing gear I would not have another. The same goes for fiber. You can use the original if it's in good condition, or go with bronze (best choice) or aluminum.
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:34 pm

The steel 4 spoke was the first helical gear following the straight cut cam gear. I'm assuming following the introduction of the Ford electric starting system.

User avatar

RajoRacer
Posts: 4308
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:18 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Tomaso
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914 Touring, 1919 Centerdoor, 1924 TT C-Cab Express, 1925 Racer
Location: Longbranch, WA
MTFCA Number: 14972
MTFCI Number: 15411
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by RajoRacer » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:35 pm

And, I would use the steel gear, given the choice !


Kerry
Posts: 1297
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:42 pm
First Name: Frank
Last Name: van Ekeren
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1916 touring, 1916 pick-up, 1924 coupe, 1926 touring, 1927 touring
Location: Rosedale Vic Australia

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Kerry » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:41 pm

Looking at it will not tell you much, needs to be fitted for a check of lash.


jiminbartow
Posts: 2202
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:55 pm
First Name: James
Last Name: Patrick
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Coupe
Location: Bartow, FL
MTFCA Number: 50126
Board Member Since: 2001

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by jiminbartow » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:43 pm

The only downside to a steel gear is that it is noisier than the non-steel gears. I will take noisier, any day, over a propensity to break and lose teeth like the non steel gears do. Jim Patrick

User avatar

Steve Jelf
Posts: 6463
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:37 pm
First Name: Steve
Last Name: Jelf
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 touring and a few projects
Location: Parkerfield, Kansas
MTFCA Number: 16175
MTFCI Number: 14758
Board Member Since: 2007
Contact:

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Steve Jelf » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:12 am

It's a Model T. You won't hear the timing gear over all the other noises. :D
The inevitable often happens.
1915 Runabout
1923 Touring


Alan Long
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:33 am
First Name: Alan
Last Name: Long
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 Canadian Touring Car and 1926 Australian built Utility
Location: Western Australia

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Alan Long » Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:29 am

Agree, agree, agree. I too would prefer the noise of a steel gear set over the alternative of a dead engine due to tooth failure.
I believe steel is 100% necessary if running a generator.
Alan in Western Australia


John Codman
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:27 am
First Name: John
Last Name: Codman
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1927 Youring
Location: Naples, FL 34120

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by John Codman » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:43 am

I have probably replaced 50 timing gears in modern cars. In every case the change was necessary because the nylon gear failed. If there is any reasonable alternative, I will never install a nylon timing gear. I have also never noticed any difference in the sound of the steel gear as opposed to the nylon gear (actually there was a difference in noise - with the failed nylon gear the engine would not run. With the steel gear installed it would).

User avatar

Mark Gregush
Posts: 4957
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:57 pm
First Name: Mark
Last Name: Gregush
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1925 cutdown PU, 1920 Dodge touring, 1948 F2 Ford flat head 6 pickup 3 speed
Location: Portland Or
MTFCA Number: 52564
Board Member Since: 1999

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Mark Gregush » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:28 am

And to counter with; when I lost my center main, also broke some of the teeth off the nylon gear, except; only took the top part off some of the teeth and cracked others, the car still ran. The lost teeth were still about 1/2 there and there were cracks were about 1/2 way down the on others. When this happened, I was operating outside my norm. Tried to shift the Warford from underdrive to direct at too high RPM while still on a slight incline. While I may have stripped the remaining 1/2 cracked teeth off later(?), I was able to drive the car off the road before loading on trailer and when got home into the shed.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

1925 Cut down pickup
1920 Dodge touring
1948 Ford F2 pickup


Original Smith
Posts: 3284
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:43 am
First Name: Larry
Last Name: Smith
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 13 Touring, 13 Roadster, 17 Coupelet, 25 Roadster P/U
Location: Lomita, California
MTFCA Number: 121
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 16310

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Original Smith » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:33 am

There are two types of Ford steel helical gears. Four spoke, and three spoke.


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by blgitn » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:14 pm

Ok, thanks. Steel it is! I'll check the backlash when I get it together.

Anybody need a nylon one?

R/ Roger.


Les Schubert
Posts: 1311
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:47 pm
First Name: Les
Last Name: Schubert
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 roadster 13 touring
Location: Calgary

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Les Schubert » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:43 pm

I’ll take the nylon gear. I’ve run various fiber and nylon gears for 48 years without a problem. But I am scrupulously careful about 100 mm cam to crank spacing and generator gear lash.


Dan Hatch
Posts: 4111
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:31 pm
First Name: Dan
Last Name: Hatch
Location: Alabama
MTFCA Number: 49974

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Dan Hatch » Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:00 pm

Was there not a thread a few years ago about some nylon gears made with the wrong angle on the gears. This is what caused the teeth to shear off. Dan

User avatar

Mopar_man
Posts: 1093
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:24 pm
First Name: Robert
Last Name: Govoni
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926 Touring
Location: Fredericksburg, VA
MTFCA Number: 32331
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Mopar_man » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:26 am

Steve Jelf wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:12 am
It's a Model T. You won't hear the timing gear over all the other noises. :D
Ha!! This is so true.


Topic author
blgitn
Posts: 147
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:36 pm
First Name: Roger
Last Name: Harmon
Location: West Point, VA
MTFCA Number: 16412
Board Member Since: 2007

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by blgitn » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:04 pm

Les Schubert wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:43 pm
I’ll take the nylon gear. I’ve run various fiber and nylon gears for 48 years without a problem. But I am scrupulously careful about 100 mm cam to crank spacing and generator gear lash.
I'll keep you in mind, Les.

R/ Roger.


Allan
Posts: 5205
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:21 pm
First Name: Allan
Last Name: Bennett
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1912 van, 1917 shooting brake, 1929 roadster buckboard, 1924 tourer, 1925 barn find buckboard, 1925 D &F wide body roadster, 1927LHD Tudor sedan.
Location: Gawler, Australia

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Allan » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:29 pm

I read somewhere that some consider the 4 spoke steel gears to be superior to the later 3 spoke type. I can't remember the details. I wonder if all the replacement nylon/fibre/whatever are used for any other reason than either cheapness or noise reduction. My preference has always been for a new steel crankshaft gear and an aluminium timing gear.

Allan from down under.


Gen3AntiqueAuto
Posts: 390
Joined: Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:36 pm
First Name: Tim
Last Name: Foye
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 27 Fordor, 15 speedster (2), 23 touring, 26 fordor, 25 TT
Location: Middleborough MA
MTFCA Number: 292
MTFCA Life Member: YES
MTFCI Number: 106
Board Member Since: 1999
Contact:

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Gen3AntiqueAuto » Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:46 pm

Old thread but I will chime in. I have sold and installed "a few" nylon timing gears, never heard of one failing unless something stopped the cam from turning first. I have also used aluminum and bronze - they rang like a bell, took them out after a few miles and put fiber or nylon back in.

That being said - I found this thread looking for information on the early straight cut gears. I'm still looking.

Why? "spoilers"... https://youtube.com/shorts/42w_CPoJmN0

Anyone know what year they switched to helical, or any relevent information on straight cut? Are they reproducing them? Advantage / disadvantages?
Gen III Antique Auto - we do Model T Ford Restorations

You can have everything in life you want, if you will just help other people get what they want -Zig Z.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeROBg ... pB-KImprjw


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by TXGOAT2 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:54 pm

Helical gears are stronger and quieter than spur gears. They may introduce some mild side thrust, which would probably add to quiet running. I don't trust nylon gears in auto engines. I would trust an original type bakelite/fabric gear if it was not decades old. Cast iron/streel helical gears are the most reliable, especially where a generator is involved.


RGould1910
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:16 am
First Name: Richard
Last Name: Gould
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1910 touring, 1912 roadster , 1927 roadster
Location: Folsom, CA

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by RGould1910 » Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:53 pm

I run fiber gears on nongenerator Ts without any issue. Since you can find them in a couple oversizes, it's not difficult to set them up correctly. I wonder if some of the failures we hear about are due to a bent crank or cam. I've seen both.


Dan McEachern
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: too many. '14 touring, 2 depot hacks, 2 speedsters
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Dan McEachern » Sat Dec 10, 2022 6:46 pm

The Ford cam gears are not steel they are malleable iron. All Ford T crankshaft gears are steel. Just FYI.
Last edited by Dan McEachern on Sat Dec 10, 2022 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Adam
Posts: 1411
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:57 am
First Name: Adam
Last Name: Doleshal
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: ‘13 Touring, ‘24 Touring, ‘25 TT dump truck, ‘26 Tudor, ‘20 Theiman harvester T powerplant, ‘20 T Staude tractor
Location: Wisconsin
MTFCA Number: 23809
MTFCI Number: 1
Board Member Since: 2000

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Adam » Sat Dec 10, 2022 7:41 pm

TheSpeedsterProject wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 3:46 pm
I have also used aluminum and bronze - they rang like a bell, took them out after a few miles and put fiber or nylon back in.
If any timing gear “rang like a bell” the centers, or lash, or something else wasn’t quite right…


Art M
Posts: 843
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 pm
First Name: Art
Last Name: Mirtes
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1923 Touring
Location: Huron, Ohio
MTFCA Number: 32489
MTFCI Number: 24068
Board Member Since: 2016

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Art M » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:17 pm

Advantages of helical and spur gears
Helical are quieter
Spur or straight tooth are stronger, more efficient, and easier to manufacture

Art Mirtes


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2952
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:40 am

Art M wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:17 pm
Advantages of helical and spur gears
Helical are quieter
Spur or straight tooth are stronger, more efficient, and easier to manufacture

Art Mirtes
Helicals are really no more difficult to manufacture than spurs. Usually just requires a different change gear ratio between the gear blank and the spriral hob.


Dan McEachern
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:08 am
First Name: DAN
Last Name: MCEACHERN
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: too many. '14 touring, 2 depot hacks, 2 speedsters
Location: ALAMEDA,CA,USA

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Dan McEachern » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:36 pm

Helical Gear.jpg


Jerry VanOoteghem
Posts: 2952
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:06 pm
First Name: Jerry
Last Name: Van
Location: S.E. Michigan
MTFCA Number: 24868

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sun Dec 11, 2022 7:31 pm

Jerry VanOoteghem wrote:
Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:40 am
Art M wrote:
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:17 pm
Advantages of helical and spur gears
Helical are quieter
Spur or straight tooth are stronger, more efficient, and easier to manufacture

Art Mirtes
Helicals are really no more difficult to manufacture than spurs. Usually just requires a different change gear ratio between the gear blank and the spriral hob.
Dan's photo above has me a bit humbled. Yes there's a bit more to it than gear ratios.


TXGOAT2
Posts: 6411
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2021 10:08 pm
First Name: Pat
Last Name: McNallen
* REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1926-7 roadster
Location: Graham, Texas
MTFCA Number: 51486
Board Member Since: 2021

Re: Big Timing Gear

Post by TXGOAT2 » Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:46 am

I suspect that timing gears in 4 cylinder engines tend to be noisier than those in 6 or 8 cylinder engines, since they are less uniformly driven and loaded. I'd also think that a Model T Ford's low speed 4 cylinder engine, which has no cam-driven oil pump, would tend to have especially noisy timing gears. Lack of a harmonic balancer might further contribute to timing gear noise at certain speeds.
The constant drag of a gear type oil pump would tend to pre-load the timing gears, which would contribute to quieter operation. A generator on a T engine contributes its own noise, adds another gear, and provides very little pre load at low speeds.

Post Reply Previous topicNext topic