Found this inspecting engine

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Jeff5015
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Found this inspecting engine

Post by Jeff5015 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:49 pm

I had the spark plugs out so I stuck a magnet into a cylinder to see if I would pull up any metal dust. Of course I did and it was more than I expected.
After removing the head this is what I found.
20190223_121942.jpg
20190223_121932.jpg
There is a lot of soot and metal dust, plus some of the bolts are rusted, some oily.

I intend on cleaning it all up. Before I do I have a few questions questions:

1) I am ordering the gasket should I replace the head bolts also?

2) Why is one valve white?

3) will I use some sort of gasket sealant like permatex?

4) do I need to do more than just clean up?

Thanks for all the help I have gotten on this forum,

Jeff in Florida
1916 Touring

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Ruxstel24
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by Ruxstel24 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:28 pm

All the black is carbon probably from too rich of fuel mixture. #3 exhaust valve is white from being leaner (more close to normal, but a vacuum leak is suspect since the rest are black).
The head bolts are fine, clean up with a wire brush. Bottom tap all the bolt holes.
I would pull and inspect/lap the valves at this point. Clean off all the carbon and then.

Check the block and head with a straight edge.
New Copper head gasket and a coat of copper spray sealer...NOTHING ELSE.

Check the intake system for a poor seal.

Happy trails !

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JTT3
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by JTT3 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 2:41 pm

1 head bolts are cheap enough so you might consider it. If you inspect the bolts after cleaning and the threads don’t look like they’re rolled I would probably reuse.
2 White indicates high heat
3 use cooper coat spray, you’ll be glad you did MHO
4 Well it depends, was your engine running? If yes, why did you remove the head? I’d certainly clean everything and scrape the carbon off the Pistons, clean the water ports, clean the bolt holes of debris, I’d checked the valve clearance also.


HPetrino
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by HPetrino » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:00 pm

A suggestion:

Whether you use old or new head bolts, be sure to clean out all of the bolt holes in the block. When I did mine I used an awl to stir up any crud in the bottom of each hole (being careful of the threads), then after covering everything with clean cloths, I held the shop vacuum to each hole and used a can of "electronics duster" (aerosol can of compressed air or CO2) to blow out each hole while sucking the debris with the shop vac. You'll be amazed at how much stuff comes out. Also, I've heard stores of there being enough crud in the bottom of a hole to cause the head bolt to break out the bottom of the hole when tightened, so you definitely do not want to skip doing this.

Anyhow, my $0.02 worth.


Jerry VanOoteghem
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by Jerry VanOoteghem » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:02 pm

That all looks pretty normal. Clean it up and put it back together as advised above.


Norman Kling
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by Norman Kling » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:49 am

It's possible that either the head gasket was leaking or the bolt holes were drilled all the way into the water jacket. It would be unusual for the head bolts to rust in the thread area unless some water was getting in. That could also explain the white valve. That cylinder was firing and perhaps a little lean. The others were running rich. If the deposit is oily, you could also be pulling in some oil through the rings. Check the head with a straight edge to be sure it is not warped. If you find it warped, have it machined enough to be completely flat. When you replace the head gasket, be sure to toque the bolts. In order to do it properly, the threads in the block should be cleaned with a bottoming tap and the threads on the bolts should be clean or new bolts. Also, before you install the head, try it without any gasket and tighten the bolts. The tops of the bolts should touch the head, when tightening without a gasket. If the bolt stops before it touches the head, grind off a little from the end of that bolt. Then remove and install the new gasket. Torque the bolts starting in the center and working outward alternating from side to side. front to back. Start by tightening just snug, then start in the center and torque about 20 ft lbs all the way around using the same pattern, go back and torque to 30 ft lbs, then 40, 45 and stop at 50 ft lbs all the way around. After you warm up the engine, if you have an iron head go back and torque again to 50 ft lbs. If an aluminum head wait until it cools to torque. Drive the car a mile or two and repeat. Continue to torque after you warm the engine until it remains at 50 ft lbs. This will assure you a good seal
Norm


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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by John kuehn » Tue Feb 26, 2019 12:43 pm

While you have the head off use compressed air, an ice pick or if the 1/4” water jacket holes in the head and block are partially blocked clean them out. You will be surprised how much crud and rust are in them. Carefully use a 1/4” drill bit to clean out the small holes.
Every little bit helps in cooling of a Model T.


Tod Wirth, WI
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Re: Found this inspecting engine

Post by Tod Wirth, WI » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:26 pm

Hi Jeff. Welcome to the affliction (I mean hobby).

This engine needs a valve job!!

Cylinder number three exhaust valve is white (and different than the other three exhaust valves) for a reason. The head of that valve has been getting very hot. On the exhaust stoke, with the exhaust valve open, a lot of heat is transferred to the exhaust valve as the hot exhaust gasses pass it. Once the valve closes, most of that heat is dissipated into the block through the valve seat. That valve is not seating properly and is not dissipating heat to the block.

You didn't mention any problems with the way that this engine ran, but based on what I see, I would not be surprised if this engine had a rough idle, an out right miss at idle and/or was lacking in power. If you want to check this, clean out the head bolt threads (as described above) and reinstall the head with the old gasket. It should seal well enough for testing as long as it has not been badly damaged. Do a compression test. You will find that number 3 will be lower than the rest.

On the subject of cleaning out the bottoms of the head bolt holes. I just use a 11/32 drill in a cordless drill to quickly clean out the bottoms of the holes, then run a bottoming tap down the threads. Blow out the holes after each step and keep the debris from getting in the engine.

The valve could be failing due to normal wear, or the valve could be sticking in its guide, or the valve to tappet clearance might have been set to tight (holding the valve off its seat once it got hot and expanded). But one of the most common reasons exhaust valves fail is due to corrosion of the sealing surfaces. One common way this can happen is when a head gasket is put on dry (on a Model T), and then water/coolant seeps along the machining marks and other slight defects on the block and/or head, and gets into the combustion chamber while the engine sits unused. The head gaskets available now, do not seal well enough to keep this from happening. This is the reason for spraying them with copper coat as described above.

Tod

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