Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

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SurveyKing
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Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by SurveyKing » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:48 pm

I had removed my Transmission Cover to get the pedal shaft holes re-bushed, now it's time to reinstall. Never having done this before, I would greatly appreciate it if some of you who have can give me some advice. Thanks in advance


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by jiminbartow » Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:53 pm

What year and style T do you have. When you say trans cover, I assume you are referring to the hogshead.

The T-1 “Model T Ford Service Manual” is the bible of Model T restoration. With its’ step by step procedural instructions and detailed illustrations and pictures, it is an invaluable resource that every Model T owner that does his own work, should have. “The Model T Service Bulletin Essentials” is also a great resource packed full of useful information in the form of bulletins that Ford sent out to dealers to keep them up to date on the latest advances and procedural changes (In the Model T era). Jim Patrick

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Last edited by jiminbartow on Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Norman Kling » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:27 pm

Is the engine in or out of the car? Easier if out of the car, but more trouble to remove and replace the engine. What year and model?
Norm


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by John kuehn » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:35 pm

If you have the Ford service manual it gives you the general idea how to reinstall the transmission cover.
A detail not clearly mentioned is getting the gaskets in place. Before you start to install the cover use some silicone sealant to hold the transmission gaskets in place. You can also use some dental floss to hold the transmission bands together as you lower the cover down and get it in place.
Others will give advice but keeping the gaskets in place and using dental floss holding the bands together plays a big part in getting the cover down and in place.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by big2bird » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:37 pm

It is the mother of detachable bands. Absolute worse job on the car is the hogs head in a car.
In a closed car its h***.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Sarikatime » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:51 pm

Make sure to pack the hogshead with rags so in case you drop one of the washers or nuts they will not end up in the bottom of the pan. After all is well and done, make sure to remove all the rags and put the cover back on before you still have a chance to drop something into the transmission. It is also a good idea to tie a string or dental floss to anything that may fall in before you are completely buttoned up. Try not to learn the hard way, don’t ask why I say that. Frank

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by TonyB » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:32 pm

I find it best not to try any short cuts when re-installing the hogs head in the car.
This includes removing the exhaust manifold, loosening the bolts below the UJ housing, nothing loose above the opening such as a key in the ignition and ANYTHING in the way. I also use the custom tool to hold the nut and washer holding the pedals to the bands and wire the bands together with something plastic.
Don’t skimp on anything and it may go well. If you take short cuts it will probably take longer and you’ll learn some new cuss words 😊
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Steve Jelf » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:23 pm

We still don't know what car this is. If it's a cast iron hogshead I think I'd lower it on with a hoist.
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by SurveyKing » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:48 pm

Sorry for not giving more details, please see attached photos. It is a 1924 Chassis with body off.
1924 Transmission Cover.jpg
1924 Chassis.jpg
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by jiminbartow » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:14 am

Good. It is much easier to do it without the body in the way. On September 3, 2010 I posted in the attached thread, a procedure I used in installing my hogshead. Please see: www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/121217.html. In a nutshell, it involves sealing one side of the gaskets at a time with RTV (I prefer “The Right Stuff”). The reason for sealing one side of a gasket at a time is, because, virtually all RTV gasket sealers begin to set up before the gaskets are all in place, which causes one to hurry through a process that should be deliberate and methodical and we all know when one is forced to hurry, mistakes are made, such as misaligned parts, shifting gaskets and ripped gaskets. In doing one side of the gaskets at a time, it gives you double the time to line up the gaskets and parts and to be more deliberate in taking your time in doIng the job right. This method can be used in assembling and applying gaskets to the entire engine. Of course, in assembling the hogshead to the pan, it is a slower process because after applying sealant to one side of the gasket, the parts being sealed must be bolted together and torqued and allowed to cure overnight and the next day, the parts separated and sealant applied to the remaining side and the parts bolt together for good, but it is worth it, because since the gasket is already aligned and unable to move, that is one less thing to worry about, especially because there are so many other things to do while aligning the hogshead, such as positioning the clutch fork and the three pedals onto the bands. It may be hard to believe, but, after 10 years, my T does not leak at all from the gasketed joints of my engine. To be fair, it does leak a very small amount from non gasketed areas, such as the three pedal bushings where the pedals enter the hogshead. Jim Patrick
Last edited by jiminbartow on Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Norman Kling » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:27 am

With the body off, it should be quite easy. Lay the Gasket on the crankcase and seal it down with ultra black. Let the gasket sealer set up a while to keep the gasket in place. Put the felt seal around the back of the engine. It would be easier with the manifold off. Remove the two bolts at the rear of the universal joint ball and slide the retainer back. You should be able to lower the cover right down. It helps with two people as one can lower the cover while the other aligns the bands and the clutch release half ring into the groove. When you get the cover all the way down and everything in place, install the bolts. tighten them gradually working from the ends to the front and back. Be very careful of the bolt at the front which is next to the engine. It is very easy to snap off the corner of the hogs head if that bolt binds, however, it needs to be tight to compress the felt seal. Next if the gasket at the u joint is bad, you can carefully cut another so it can be placed without pulling out the U joint. put some extra sealer at the area of the cut. Less likely to leak if the cut is at the top. When you put the springs, washers and nuts on the pedal shafts, be sure to have shop towels or rags all around the area so in case you should accidently drop something it will be easy to retrieve. Cut the strings which were used to tie the ends of the bands together and remove.
Norm

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Steve Jelf » Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:38 am

...virtually all RTV gasket sealers begin to set up before the gaskets are all in place...

Actually, that's why The Right Stuff is The Wrong Stuff for me. I'm slow, and it sets up too fast. I use Ultra Black, which is slower and doesn't give me that problem.
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by ABoer » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:49 am

Daniel ; I use a Hoist to help me .
Toon .
IMGP0169.JPG


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by SurveyKing » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:52 pm

Really great advice from all of you, thank you so much. I do have the Right Stuff and will try to do the one side at a time approach. Jim, when you put the RTV sealer on the first lower side of the pan gaskets then tighten the hogs head down, do you also saturate the felt with sealant and apply it in the first step or do you put the felt in on the second and final step?


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by John kuehn » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:07 pm

You have easy access to put the cover on so you don’t have a hard job.
Use sealant to apply the felt strip first so it will help it stay in place then you can coat the felt if you want and then put the cover on.
This way works for me.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:10 pm

In the first application, I put a generous application on the bottom of the felt, but not the top. I apply the RTV to the top of the felt on the second application. Be sure to stretch the felt before applying the Right Stuff and trim off each side so that the felt does not go beyond the hump, onto the pan surface and impede the flush fit of the hogshead to the pan. By the same token, do not trim the felt too short. It must go all the way around to each side of the hump, all the way down to the pan, but not beyond. When putting on the hogshead after the first application to the bottom of the felt, I cover the top of the felt with a strip of wax paper to prevent the Right Stuff from going through to the top from the bottom. I do the top on the final application just before buttoning it up. The reason I recommend putting on and tightening the hogshead after applying a generous application to the bottom of the gaskets is because, the pan between the bolt holes is not perfectly flat. The surface of the pan is often wavy and it is necessary to fill and bridge the low points between the holes and tightening the hogshead does this nicely. When you remove the hogshead after the first application to the bottom of the gaskets, you can remove the over flow of RTV that squeezed out, from the inside of of the pan. Be sure to not only align the horizontal surfaces of the pan to hogshead, but also the vertical surfaces, that include the end of the hogshead and rear of the pan that must be aligned for the all important fourth bearing which supports the weight of the transmission. Also, the hogshead where it attaches to the engine block should be bolted to the engine block and shimmed, if necessary to ensure that the rear of the hogshead and rear of the pan are precisely aligned. Jim Patrick

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Steve Jelf » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:42 pm

...the hogshead where it attaches to the engine block should be bolted to the engine block and shimmed...

Not on a 1924.
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by jiminbartow » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:56 pm

Thank you Steve. I have a ‘26. I guess on a ‘24, the best way to align the rear of the hogshead with the rear of the pan is to install the fourth bearing ball cap and bolt it in place before tightening the hogshead to the pan. Jim Patrick


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Allan » Sun Nov 01, 2020 1:12 am

I use black RTV sealant on the felt over the hump at the rear of the block. I lay it on some cardboard and work a good amount of sealant into the felt. Then i turn it over and do the same on the other side. I end up with a felt reinforced silicone gasket. There is no need to trim the felt. When installing it I leave 1/4" of each end flat on the pan rail. The rest is worked down over the hump, compressing any surplus down as you go.
This step comes after the pan rail gaskets are placed. One side has the same sealant next to the pan. The gasket is held in place with two pan rail bolts inserted from below and held in place with cotter pins. The final application of sealant is made to the top side of the gaskets once you are ready to lower the cover in place
Once the cover is lowered and the pedal shafts/clutch selector fork are engaged, some of the bolts can be fitted. Then the cotter pins can be pulled and the "keeper" bolts removed before the bolts are tightened.
Dental floss helps also to hold the clutch fork upright while you are lowering the cover. If you can't get it all out after you have the cover in place, it really is of no consequence'

Hope this helps.
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by SurveyKing » Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:49 pm

Thanks Thanks Allan for you advice. The RTV sealant directions say to assemble the parts within 5 minutes. There seems to be a lot of steps here and I am not sure about being able to do that the first time without practice. I believe I will attempt a couple of practice without sealant to see how long it takes.

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by TWrenn » Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:40 am

Well for my short attention span there's too much too read here, so I will probly be saying the same as others...and when I finally
noticed your engine is out of the car, I thought, okay..this is easy! I've done hogsheads both ways, clearly and obviously when out of the car it's the easiest. You've got the bands tied together, so you're halfway or more home. Goop up your gasket on the crankcase first, then put some light goop on top of the gasket and start lowering the hogshead onto the mess. Your biggest challenge is the shifting fork next to that big spring, seems like I "tied" it in place somehow to line it up easier but forget how. But it did work.
The next toughest thing is getting the "fingers" of the bands lined up to the adjusters. It aint easy, but it can be done. Seems like once I got my gaskets and the shifting fork all set up, the final stage took about 15 minutes of a "hard fight" with the 3 bands. It all boils down to how perfectly you have them clamped together. You'll get it done! Good luck.

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by RajoRacer » Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:59 am

Only step I'll add to Tim's procedure is I have 4 drifts ready and after wrestling the shift fork onto the throw-out collar, I start dropping the drifts into a couple of the hogshead holes then finish getting the band ears aligned and insert the other drifts then start bolting it all up.


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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by Rich Bingham » Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:06 am

I skimmed the replies and may have missed a suggestion to secure the pedals firmly against the cams so they don't flop around while you're wrestling with the cover. Royce Peterson made a handy clamp for the purpose but those plastic zip ties or baling wire works OK too.
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by SurveyKing » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:10 am

Does anyone see any issue with installing the reverse and brake pedals after the cover is secured? Seems like it could be done that way, might make it easier to deal with.

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by DanTreace » Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:45 am

No problems if you are careful on assembly of springs and washers and nuts. Rags below and dental floss threaded on the washer and nut to prevent loss, the floss allows the nut to thread on and then easy to break away.

Large nylon wire ties, hold the band ears, and for me, the clutch fork is held by one too. Keeps the fork from wiggling, and you can direct it in place holding outboard on the clutch lever, one hand there, the other hand just inside the inspection port to lower the cast iron hogs head. IMO, Permatex #2 always works to seal, don’t like messy and sticky fast set RTV, time is necessary for the multiple steps needed to lower, align, fit band fasteners when doing this by yourself, even with practice it isn’t a fast install. Sticky, stringy RTV dries too fast for me. Plus those peeling off shards of dried RTV can find their way into the engine.

7659FFE0-80DC-4380-9937-FE6F9E61B602.jpeg


Note. In the step below, the pedals were added after hogshead drop.....but prior to any pan to hogshead fasteners. The nylon ties are still in place to keep the band ears together, for getting the springs in place as you wiggle the pedal shafts in. Then add the band washers and nuts, but don’t tighten yet.

Finally cut and pull out the nylon ties, then push the hogshead down tight, and then begin the process of placing all the bolts to fasten up. Hint: Put the inspection cover on temporary NOW. That open hole can swallow a pan bolt nut or lock washer, don’t ask how I know :roll:

4BFEC7E5-7761-43EB-B24B-71511D775CD8.jpeg
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:38 pm

I remember reading someplace how the repo felt gasket is too thick, and can cause you to crack or break the corners on an aluminum hoggshead when tightening, not sure if this was a problem with the steel covers?

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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by DanTreace » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:25 pm

Ed

Haven't had issues with any repro felts over the years. But all felt gaskets in the T shouldn't be fitted dry. Either rub in grease or oil to fit.


Use old school method, dip the hogshead felt for a total soak in a can of varnish, and squish the excess, flattening the felt.
IMG_2915.jpeg
Then add bead of favorite gasket sealer to the metal parts, the hump over the block, and the curve of the hogshead.
When the hogshead is set in place, the varnish in the felt strip will set and dry in the felt creating a real nice seal from any oil seepage. Fitting the paper gaskets from pan and block carefully, so they touch and leave no gap.

Of course this Three-Way Corner of the block, pan, and hogshead needs a spot of good stuff. That important place deserves a tooth brush size dab of Ultra Black Gasket Maker, the only place for me to put RTV on or around the engine. ;) Ford Manual says to put a candle wick there, but good stuff is better than wax!
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Re: Advice Needed to Install Trans Cover

Post by NU2theT » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:41 pm

Great information here gentleman as changing the bands and inspecting/cleaning/sealing the hogshead is on my Fall to-do list with more noticeable brake band chatter when stopping.

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