HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
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Topic author - Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 pm
- First Name: Steve
- Last Name: Bourgeois
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- MTFCI Number: 22970
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HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Here is my situation.
Stats on the car.
'26 Speedster
Warford trans
frontenac S head
It was build by my father-in-law.
Speed added by brother-in-law.
I added the electronic points hoping to help the situation.
When I picked it up from a good model T friend it ran quite well.
Now it seems that after driving a little over a mile.
it starts missing and dies.
It blows flames back through the carb and backs fire.
The fuel pump, filter and regulator has been there for a while.
The regulator was set to 5.5, I reduced the fuel pressure to 2.
Leaned the needle about 1/4 turn.
I am hoping to take it on the stroll in the morning.
Stats on the car.
'26 Speedster
Warford trans
frontenac S head
It was build by my father-in-law.
Speed added by brother-in-law.
I added the electronic points hoping to help the situation.
When I picked it up from a good model T friend it ran quite well.
Now it seems that after driving a little over a mile.
it starts missing and dies.
It blows flames back through the carb and backs fire.
The fuel pump, filter and regulator has been there for a while.
The regulator was set to 5.5, I reduced the fuel pressure to 2.
Leaned the needle about 1/4 turn.
I am hoping to take it on the stroll in the morning.
Last edited by Mustang1964s on Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
I had a similar problem. The fuel valve wasn't fully on and the carb starved for gas. If you bowl has a drain, you could check to see if it's full.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Take the fuel filter off.
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Topic author - Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 pm
- First Name: Steve
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Hey ThreePedalTapDancer,
First, I love your userid!
Second,
I ran it until it died, pulled the fuel bowl, Not much in it.
Then I pulled the float and valve out.
Turned on the fuel pump, Not much.
Turned the fuel regulator to max.
Better but not great.
Removed the Dang $%^& fuel filter.
Turned the fuel pump on again, much better flow.
put the float.... and bowl back on.
It ran but I could not give it full throttle.
This head really wants the fuel.
It currently has a NH and just can't seem to feed it.
The way I see it I have to make a choice of:
A: sell the head and put a Z head on and slow this beast down.
B: Get the correct carb and fuel pump that will feed this beast.
For tomorrow.
I plan on surprising club member with the speedster they all know very well.
I will never run a fuel filter on a T again. They are nothing but a headache.
First, I love your userid!
Second,
I ran it until it died, pulled the fuel bowl, Not much in it.
Then I pulled the float and valve out.
Turned on the fuel pump, Not much.
Turned the fuel regulator to max.
Better but not great.
Removed the Dang $%^& fuel filter.
Turned the fuel pump on again, much better flow.
put the float.... and bowl back on.
It ran but I could not give it full throttle.
This head really wants the fuel.
It currently has a NH and just can't seem to feed it.
The way I see it I have to make a choice of:
A: sell the head and put a Z head on and slow this beast down.
B: Get the correct carb and fuel pump that will feed this beast.
For tomorrow.
I plan on surprising club member with the speedster they all know very well.
I will never run a fuel filter on a T again. They are nothing but a headache.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
I disagree with Phillip. The bowl will be full. The problem is insufficient gas flow to keep up with what's being burned. Once it stops running the bowl will slowly fill.
Ed is on the right track. Ditch the filter. Also, look for other restrictions in your gas flow. Check the sediment bulb screen, possible fuel line crimp, etc. I'm not familiar with the '26-'27 gas cap, but it must have some sort of vent hole like the earlier ones. Be sure it's clear.
Good luck!!
Ed is on the right track. Ditch the filter. Also, look for other restrictions in your gas flow. Check the sediment bulb screen, possible fuel line crimp, etc. I'm not familiar with the '26-'27 gas cap, but it must have some sort of vent hole like the earlier ones. Be sure it's clear.
Good luck!!
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
We were typing at the same time....
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Topic author - Posts: 254
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Henry,
Yes we were typing at the same time.
But we came to the same conclusion.
Stupid fuel filter!
Yes we were typing at the same time.
But we came to the same conclusion.
Stupid fuel filter!
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Scott Conger
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
Tyranny under the guise of law is still Tyranny
NH Full Flow Float Valves
Obsolete carburetor parts manufactured
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Steve,. The Fronty single intake port head was designed to take a 1 1/4 inch carburetor that can mount right to the head if a fuel pump is used. The stock NH carb won't flow enought fuel much past half throttle. A side draft Stromberg works good and are around, get in touch with Stan Howe for what model Stromberg to look for, he may even have a Zenith like Fronty originaly used.
If you are on a budget you can use a one barrel downl draft carb off your six calendar 1964 1/2 Mustang and make a manafold.
Check the whole fuel system out, take the fuel line off at the pump inlet and check flow, now remove fuel cap, if flow increases with cap taken off check cap vent. If low flow at pump inlet check inside of fuel tank for blockage and crud. One more thing to check is the ground connection of the electric pump, a bad pump ground could lead to poor pump operation, make sure the pump is correct for your battery choice of 6 or 12 volts.
If you go to a flat head you will have to due valve guides because of the push rods require more room in a overhead rocker swing. If it was me I would find a good carb and enjoy the Fronty, you will be pleased.
If you are on a budget you can use a one barrel downl draft carb off your six calendar 1964 1/2 Mustang and make a manafold.
Check the whole fuel system out, take the fuel line off at the pump inlet and check flow, now remove fuel cap, if flow increases with cap taken off check cap vent. If low flow at pump inlet check inside of fuel tank for blockage and crud. One more thing to check is the ground connection of the electric pump, a bad pump ground could lead to poor pump operation, make sure the pump is correct for your battery choice of 6 or 12 volts.
If you go to a flat head you will have to due valve guides because of the push rods require more room in a overhead rocker swing. If it was me I would find a good carb and enjoy the Fronty, you will be pleased.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Kevin is right
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
A NH carb will not run a Fronty head correctly. I like the Zenith HP5A if you can find a good one. Stan is your best mentor for choice. The overhead pushrods are the same diameter as stock valves so unless worn guides no problem if you go back to flathead and valve in block unless worn.
Fuel flow and a correctly matched carb and you will be fine. A stock T carb on a Fronty...the same as putting a govenor on it.
Tim Moore
Fuel flow and a correctly matched carb and you will be fine. A stock T carb on a Fronty...the same as putting a govenor on it.
Tim Moore
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
I run my RAJO BB with a Carter BB1 updraft with a fuel
Pump set at 1.5 lbs of pressure. It’s a good combination. I had a few different combinations and settled on this as it had good pickup with the accelerator pump.
Pump set at 1.5 lbs of pressure. It’s a good combination. I had a few different combinations and settled on this as it had good pickup with the accelerator pump.
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Topic author - Posts: 254
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies
Thank you guys.
I knew that the carb was not correct.
The T unloaded and Parked in the row with the others. No issues and sounded great.
When it was time to leave, it would not run. So We spent the day in the truck.
We returned to the rally point and she ran well enough to load back on the trailer.
Now I will be on the hunt for the correct carb.
Our club has a tradition of a rubber chicken. When your car breaks down on a stroll, you get the rubber chicken until the next unlucky soul has bad luck.
The speedster will be sporting the rubber chicken for a while.
Some of the most experienced members have the honor of the rubber chicken.
So it's just part of the fun of being part of a club.
Thank you all for you replies.
May your roads be flat and straight and the lights always green.
I knew that the carb was not correct.
The T unloaded and Parked in the row with the others. No issues and sounded great.
When it was time to leave, it would not run. So We spent the day in the truck.
We returned to the rally point and she ran well enough to load back on the trailer.
Now I will be on the hunt for the correct carb.
Our club has a tradition of a rubber chicken. When your car breaks down on a stroll, you get the rubber chicken until the next unlucky soul has bad luck.
The speedster will be sporting the rubber chicken for a while.
Some of the most experienced members have the honor of the rubber chicken.
So it's just part of the fun of being part of a club.
Thank you all for you replies.
May your roads be flat and straight and the lights always green.
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Topic author - Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 pm
- First Name: Steve
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac worth)
Hello Guys,
Just heard back from Stan.
$850-900 is a little to rich for my blood.
What is a Frontenac Touring head worth?
Just heard back from Stan.
$850-900 is a little to rich for my blood.
What is a Frontenac Touring head worth?
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Would a side draft SU carb work?
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
I run a model A carb on my single stick Fronty.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Don't ditch the Frontenac head. These are great items and if you have a good one, it will be really hard to replace. An overhead valve cylinder head is the heart and sole of a speedster.
While having a period correct carburetor is nice, it is certainly not a necessity for successful operation or even appearance. Keep in mind, people have built Model T speedsters since the beginning of the Model T-and they haven't stopped since then. It is not uncommon nor incorrect to have parts on a speedster which are later than the Model T era.
All of the above carburetor recommendations are good ones.
The postwar six cylinder Ford single barrel downdraft is a good option. These carburetors are all over the place for cheap and are easily fixed at home with an equally cheap and readily available carburetor kit.
A 1940s-50s Carter BB1 updraft. These are a little more money, but easily found and super simple carburetors. Try to find one with the adjustable high speed jet. I have bought a lot of these over the years. Some were really disgusting looking on the outside but nearly all of them were easily made to be usable with a good cleaning and a gasket set. They are basically fool proof.
Model A and B Ford carburetors work well too, are also cheap, and easy to rebuild at home. The aftermarket Tillotson with the square bowl would be my choice or a 1932-34 Model B. Kits are available for all of these from any of the Model A vendors.
An SU sidedraft will certainly work as well. I haven't used one of these, but others have. They have more moving parts than the above carburetors but are certainly a viable option.
You may need to make an intake manifold depending on which carburetor you choose, but for a single port head, its just a matter of cutting some flanges and welding some elbow pipe. You might be able to modify what you already have. Easy peasy.
Any of the above options should sufficiently carburate your car for very little money and minimal do-it-yourself labor.
Don't give up what you already have!
While having a period correct carburetor is nice, it is certainly not a necessity for successful operation or even appearance. Keep in mind, people have built Model T speedsters since the beginning of the Model T-and they haven't stopped since then. It is not uncommon nor incorrect to have parts on a speedster which are later than the Model T era.
All of the above carburetor recommendations are good ones.
The postwar six cylinder Ford single barrel downdraft is a good option. These carburetors are all over the place for cheap and are easily fixed at home with an equally cheap and readily available carburetor kit.
A 1940s-50s Carter BB1 updraft. These are a little more money, but easily found and super simple carburetors. Try to find one with the adjustable high speed jet. I have bought a lot of these over the years. Some were really disgusting looking on the outside but nearly all of them were easily made to be usable with a good cleaning and a gasket set. They are basically fool proof.
Model A and B Ford carburetors work well too, are also cheap, and easy to rebuild at home. The aftermarket Tillotson with the square bowl would be my choice or a 1932-34 Model B. Kits are available for all of these from any of the Model A vendors.
An SU sidedraft will certainly work as well. I haven't used one of these, but others have. They have more moving parts than the above carburetors but are certainly a viable option.
You may need to make an intake manifold depending on which carburetor you choose, but for a single port head, its just a matter of cutting some flanges and welding some elbow pipe. You might be able to modify what you already have. Easy peasy.
Any of the above options should sufficiently carburate your car for very little money and minimal do-it-yourself labor.
Don't give up what you already have!
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Some of the comments really are counter to my experience. I have owned ,and run a Roof 8(Laurel model 40) head for years. It has a factory supplied adapter for a NH carb, and I have run that on a 27 4dr for a number of years with zero problems!! I had a flex choke cable and after dialing in the mixture, just ran it like any manual choke car.
Ultimately I sold the car and kept the head and I eventually acquired a much larger throat carb that bolts on to a pressure oiled engine (drilled T crank). But the NH version was totally reliable!
Ultimately I sold the car and kept the head and I eventually acquired a much larger throat carb that bolts on to a pressure oiled engine (drilled T crank). But the NH version was totally reliable!
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
I will post a picture of the NH carb adapter later today.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Here’s a dual NH set up.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
I wasn't kidding about using the 6 cy Mustang carburetor if on a budget. Others have posted carbutors that willl work well like the SU. The main thing is you can find a carburetor to use instead of using the NH. If you sell your Fronty you will always regret it if you keep the speedster.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
If you have a copy of the Fast Ford or Ford in Speed and Sport reprinted of the 1920's articles, if not get copies from vendors. In one of those books Murie Fsinstock a era expert on Ford T placed a 16 valve Roof head on his 1919 T runabout. He frist ran the NH and talks about it, the car ran, but it was like trying to run breathing threw a soda straw.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
A bit of heresy but I put a Weber 32/36 carb on my Fronty speedster and love it. Not correct for sure and needed to make up a simple manifold but performs very nicely and better than my previous "can't adjust it" Zenith HP5A. I swapped jets on the Zenith a few times and got it to run clean and get 20 mpg but the Weber turned out to be a better match for me - even if it isn't brass.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Here are some pictures of the Roof factory NH adapter
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
It also helps when you contact somebody about buying a specific carb and want the best of the best, restored with an adjustable jet, etc., that you expect it to be expensive.
It also helps if you give them some idea of what your budget is, what you are looking for ---- Big Zoom, a little more power, a LOT more power, flashy looks, cheap price, etc., etc. answer questions as to whether you have or are willing to add a fuel pump, what your manifold configuration is, etc. Most people in business are busy. We are not sitting in front of a computer waiting for an answer to a question that should have been answered after the last email.
Quality costs money. Time is worth money. Most people in business do not have time to guess at every possible configuration, every possible application, etc.
Many people are just wanting some information so they can go looking for a cheaper one somewhere else.
I recently spent hours and hours over a several week period trying to get exactly the right carb figured out for a 1917 Auburn. It started with one of those Sunday Afternoon phone calls, "My car won't run, we are on a tour, it keeps dying," progressed to "What do you recommend as a replacement," photos send, email after email, finally came up with the best choice, priced it out and have never heard another word.
Thank you???? Oh Hell No.
Then people wonder why the vendors go out of business.
Off to the shop. I have customers to take care of that have actually spent money, this is a one man operation and I do not answer emails on Sunday no matter how many times I get the same one.
I'm headed to the ranch later this afternoon. I have work to do there, too. There are no more hours in the day today.
It also helps if you give them some idea of what your budget is, what you are looking for ---- Big Zoom, a little more power, a LOT more power, flashy looks, cheap price, etc., etc. answer questions as to whether you have or are willing to add a fuel pump, what your manifold configuration is, etc. Most people in business are busy. We are not sitting in front of a computer waiting for an answer to a question that should have been answered after the last email.
Quality costs money. Time is worth money. Most people in business do not have time to guess at every possible configuration, every possible application, etc.
Many people are just wanting some information so they can go looking for a cheaper one somewhere else.
I recently spent hours and hours over a several week period trying to get exactly the right carb figured out for a 1917 Auburn. It started with one of those Sunday Afternoon phone calls, "My car won't run, we are on a tour, it keeps dying," progressed to "What do you recommend as a replacement," photos send, email after email, finally came up with the best choice, priced it out and have never heard another word.
Thank you???? Oh Hell No.
Then people wonder why the vendors go out of business.
Off to the shop. I have customers to take care of that have actually spent money, this is a one man operation and I do not answer emails on Sunday no matter how many times I get the same one.
I'm headed to the ranch later this afternoon. I have work to do there, too. There are no more hours in the day today.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
When I had my Fronty, I ran a Stromberg MB1 carburetor. It's a side draft that was also used on a Stude light six. Good strong carburetor that will supply all the gas you'll need. You can find them on ebay and the price is usually pretty good...
Frank
Frank
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Topic author - Posts: 254
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Stan,
Please accept my cinereous apology.
I now know how busy you are and I should have added more information.
Knowing next to nothing about this head that we inherited, I am learning fast.
This car was built by my late father-in-law and modified by my brother-in-law.
The brother-in-law put the head on it just a little bit before he passed.
I did not mean to offend you or get on your bad side.
Please accept my apology.
Maybe we can start in a different foot.
Steve
Please accept my cinereous apology.
I now know how busy you are and I should have added more information.
Knowing next to nothing about this head that we inherited, I am learning fast.
This car was built by my late father-in-law and modified by my brother-in-law.
The brother-in-law put the head on it just a little bit before he passed.
I did not mean to offend you or get on your bad side.
Please accept my apology.
Maybe we can start in a different foot.
Steve
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
Sorry guys no carb that a engine will run on should quite after a mile. look for a fuel supply issue. take the fuel line off the carb run it into a 5 gal. bucket. If the the fuel is still running free after 5 minutes. then the problem is in the carb, if the fuel stops running then its a supply problem. I have seen more grief over a plugged cap vent than I have ever expected. Remember Occam's Razor the simplest answer is the most probable solution.
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Topic author - Posts: 254
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
I was moving some boxes that was received from my late brother-in-law.
Found this Stromberg.
Would this work with the Frontenac?
What model?
Is a rebuild kit available?
Do you see any obvious parts missing?
Found this Stromberg.
Would this work with the Frontenac?
What model?
Is a rebuild kit available?
Do you see any obvious parts missing?
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
That is an updraft and has the wrong mounting for your Fronty. You should be looking for a side draft carburetor similsr to this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STROMBERG-OS-2 ... Rk&vxp=mtr
If you could locate a copy of the original sales literature for the Fronty, you would see that a similar side draft was offered as the correct carb for that set-up. It would be a lot less work fabricating an intake manifold with a side draft.
Frank
https://www.ebay.com/itm/STROMBERG-OS-2 ... Rk&vxp=mtr
If you could locate a copy of the original sales literature for the Fronty, you would see that a similar side draft was offered as the correct carb for that set-up. It would be a lot less work fabricating an intake manifold with a side draft.
Frank
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Topic author - Posts: 254
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- First Name: Steve
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- * REQUIRED* Type and Year of Model Ts owned: 1914, 1926
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
That would explain why it was buried in a box.
Thank you for the link.
Thank you for the link.
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
That's still a very nice set-up! But, not for your application...Mustang1964s wrote: ↑Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:34 amThat would explain why it was buried in a box.
Thank you for the link.
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Topic author - Posts: 254
- Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:48 pm
- First Name: Steve
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- MTFCA Number: 29784
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Re: HELP It runs for about a mile and dies(Frontenac Touring head worth)
We have a '26 touring with a stock head.
The thought might be getting this setup to run on the touring car.
The thought might be getting this setup to run on the touring car.