Engine splash pans

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dhosh
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Engine splash pans

Post by dhosh » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:46 pm

My '24 doesn't have engine splash pans. Do they help much in cool weather, keeping cold air out of the cab... And possibly keeping heat in the engine compartment.... For good or bad?
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Rich Bingham » Sat Nov 14, 2020 6:53 pm

They help immensely in all weather to keep mud and water out of the carburetor intake when you're hub deep and chugging along ! :lol: YMMV
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Charles J » Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:50 pm

They have been on my car every since day one that's just another part of the Model T that gives character I wouldn't do without them

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Humblej » Sat Nov 14, 2020 8:37 pm

I have had them on and off at different times over the years, but I do not remember if there was any noticable difference to the cabin comfort, it did save me from loosing tools and the oil filler cap on several occasions. I do not remember any negative side effects by using them.


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by dhosh » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:08 pm

I can certainly see the benefit as tool capture devices! :-) interesting on cabin comfort, though!
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Allan » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:44 pm

There are negatives to them, which is most likely why the majority have gone missing over the years. If you want to remove a carburetor bowl to check feed blockages at the needle and seat, the RH one needs to come off. On our RHD cars, that same one has to come off to get the generator off the car, as it has to come out through the bottom. Coupled with the fact they make little difference whether fitted or not, I can understand why owners chose to leave them off.

That said, my barn find car still has them on both sides. That they are still there and not all bent up, is another sign of the sheltered life she has led. the RH one has a 1/2" thick layer of accumulated crud all over it. I had to dig my way through it to access the carburetor drain when bringing her back to life.

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:17 am

Two common methods to raise engine temperature is to block the air flow through the radiator or to install a thermostat.
Raising the temperature in the engine bay to provide warm air to the carburetor on cold days may be more difficult than what the hot air pipe can do.
The engine bay (firewall, hood with side louvers and splash pans) is designed to create a negative pressure area to assist in cooling. When traveling the air in front of the radiator is at a high pressure and the air flow through it can be enhanced by creating a low pressure area in the engine compartment (i.e. Bernoulli Principle). The more air flow through the radiator the more it cools. The splash pans & hood are necessary to make a low pressure compartment and the louvers aid, not only as a method to expel the air but their shape also creates an external low pressure area pulling the air out of the engine compartment. Without them (one or all) air turbulence would result and the low pressure area wouldn't be as effective and the radiator's cooling would not be as efficient. When stopped its up to the fan to create the air flow for the creation of the low pressure zone. And like in modern cars the hood and splash plans keep water, dirt and mud off the engine and out of filters.
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by dhosh » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:28 am

So, adding splash pans will help with cooling .. but pretty much the opposite to what I 'think' I want to do. Sounds like blocking the radiator is probably the simplest. I might be into another canvas project , so the amount of blockage can be adjusted.
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Original Smith » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:09 am

There should be a study of all years for everyone to see. Don't count on the repros being correct either. For instance, Tom Rootlieb made me an exact copy for my '25 pickup, because they are not available. This style was used two years, in 1925 and 1926 on the cars with standard carburetors.


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by ThreePedalTapDancer » Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:19 am

“The splash pans & hood are necessary to make a low pressure compartment and the louvers aid, not only as a method to expel the air but their shape also creates an external low pressure area pulling the air out of the engine compartment.”

How does that theory relate to early Ts with no hood louvers?

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Nov 15, 2020 1:24 pm

The louvers were so you could hear the horn. :lol: This why they were added in 1915, the horn was under the hood.
I know the voices aren't real but damn they have some good ideas! :shock:

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Been Here Before » Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:06 pm

Comment...these hickey-do's that you are calling engine splash pans are referred to in the period literature for early automobiles as mud guards, or engine mud guards. Their purpose is to protect generators, magnetos, timers, fans from mud and gravel found on and from the early roads. The flat hour rate for repair of the early automobiles includes reference to removal and replace of the mud pans. Other articles up into the 1930's, states that annoying rattles can be removed by just tightening the mud guard.

Not to up set any one, but again the literature of the period refers to engine splash pan as be part of the lubrication system inside the motor.

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TRDxB2 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:35 pm

ThreePedalTapDancer wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:19 am
“The splash pans & hood are necessary to make a low pressure compartment and the louvers aid, not only as a method to expel the air but their shape also creates an external low pressure area pulling the air out of the engine compartment.”

How does that theory relate to early Ts with no hood louvers?
Changes in design are usually a result of resolving a problem or to reduce cost. If over heating wasn't an issue it is unlikely that Ford would not have made several noted changes to improve radiator cooling from the brass era through the years. 09-14 no louvers, 15-25 six louvers per side , 26-27 eighteen louvers per side. Radiator modifications flat tube, round tube and 3 row. In any case, there is a need for some place for the hot air to go. Today's modern cars have "belly pans" not only to keep debris out of the engine compartment and to improve cooling but so improve aerodynamics
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Mark Gregush » Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:10 pm

Going from brass to taller "black" radiator in 1917 was as much about modernizing the car as it was for cooling. While there might have been some flat tube radiators late in production(?), the majority had round tube type. The information on the hood is on pages 211 and 212 of Bruce's book "Model T Ford"
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Dan B » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:12 pm

Can anyone post a picture of their engine compartment with pans installed?
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by cars47 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:56 pm

[image]
2154D92C-7594-4E6F-8E01-FD569A024D07.jpeg
46D52F10-F300-4D9D-9EE8-1A420C6256D2.jpeg
[/image]
Hard to see....my 1925 T

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by DanTreace » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:00 pm

Here are views from a '23

Carb side
Carb side pan '25 .jpg


Steering side
IMG_1020 (800x600) (700x525) (680x510).jpg
23 left side pan.jpg
23 left side pan.jpg (76.46 KiB) Viewed 3804 times
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by dhosh » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:04 pm

Well, they sure do look nice, though!
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by John Dow » Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:24 pm

I currently have the engine out of my '23 for rebuild and had to remove the pans. I'm considering not reinstalling them due to the way they collect oily dirt and grime. I'm also told the engine will run cooler without them. Yes? No?


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Allan » Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:31 am

John, I'd add a third question. How do you tell? With our Mediterranean climate, It's never cold enough to give even a hint of a problem, and a good radiator will take care of even the hottest of days.

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:21 am

John Dow wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:24 pm
I currently have the engine out of my '23 for rebuild and had to remove the pans. I'm considering not reinstalling them due to the way they collect oily dirt and grime. I'm also told the engine will run cooler without them. Yes? No?
I am certain that there are conditions where owners feel that their engine runs cooler without the splash pans/mud guards. But if you read some of the above responses you will see that they were designed to aid in cooling the engine.
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:37 am

Dan B wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:12 pm
Can anyone post a picture of their engine compartment with pans installed?
Here is a link that goes into the details of attaching the pans - lots of good pictures with arrows showing bolts used (by Steve Jelf) http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50 ... 1447712968
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Been Here Before » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:46 am

If certain agricultural equipment can be used as an example, with a Thermosiphon system hoods, mud guards are not necessary in the design to keep an engine cool. Take for example the Farmall-International A from the 1940s. No water pump, yet it can run 8 hours and not over heat at 2-5 mph.

The mud guards do protect the engine from road dirt and grim.

https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi- ... &th=486247

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TRDxB2 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:51 am

Been Here Before wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:46 am
If certain agricultural equipment can be used as an example, with a Thermosiphon system hoods, mud guards are not necessary in the design to keep an engine cool. Take for example the Farmall-International A from the 1940s. No water pump, yet it can run 8 hours and not over heat at 2-5 mph.
The mud guards do protect the engine from road dirt and grim.
https://www.yesterdaystractors.com/cgi- ... &th=486247
You are 100% correct. Thermosiphon requires the fluid temperature to be hot not cool. However the design of the cooling system needs to regulate things getting to hot, boil over. In some cases its not just the radiator and fan, unless you have a Berg radiator 8-)
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by NealW » Mon Nov 16, 2020 8:13 pm

John Dow wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:24 pm
I currently have the engine out of my '23 for rebuild and had to remove the pans. I'm considering not reinstalling them due to the way they collect oily dirt and grime. I'm also told the engine will run cooler without them. Yes? No?
John,

You and I are "blessed" with many warm Kansas summer days for T driving, but I don't have the mud pans installed on our 21 touring or15 runabout. I have a thermometer installed on both during the summer, and they both cool fine without the pans. In fact, when I first got our 21 a few years ago, the pans were missing and I didn't even know that they were supposed to have pans until I got our 15 restoration project. It's pans had one or both welded due to cracks somewhere in their past and after painting them, I decided to leave them off because they didn't look that great with the weld seams. It's nice not having them in the way when I work on the engine on either car. They are down in the basement with my miscellaneous spare T parts and I don't ever plan on installing them.

I've designed a couple of piston engine cooling systems during my career at Cessna aircraft company, so I have some experience with how they work. I suspect that their main purpose was to provide protection for the engine compartment when driving through mud and water on the unpaved roads back when the cars were new. As someone pointed out earlier, the model T hoods didn't have louvers before 1915 but did have mud pans, so it's a bit hard to argue that mud pans are intended to be baffles with louvers being intended for the cooling exits. I have heard that the louvers were added to allow the now buried horn on the 1915 models to be better heard. That could be the reason, but the aft facing louvers are also helpful for extracting air, which is why you see them on some airplane cowls, either as a series of louvers like on a T hood, or as a single "big louver" that is used as a cowl flap.

I hope this helps.

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by TWrenn » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:17 am

I'm with George and Frank..my '13 came with those cussed splash pans, I ran with 'em for a while, then of course took them off. Absolutely no difference in the cooling of the engine. If anything, maybe even ran a bit cooler without 'em! They're a nuisance when you want to work on anything. Stop and think...the air runs HORIZONTAL through the radiator, aided by the FAN, not the pans.
The pans are at the bottom of the radiator, so how in the heck is that gonna make any difference with the horizontal wind buzzing past everything? If anything, and I really don't know 'cause I'm not a physicist, but without the pans just maybe a little "extra" air circulates up from underneath and helps to wash heat off the block along with the air through the rad. Anyway, I have a hunch the main reason for these pans was mostly dirt and mud deflection. This will be debated forever, along with oil, timers, and of course the infamous water pump!! :lol:

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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Steve Jelf » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:32 am

Would Ford have put engine pans on the car if they caused overheating? I think not. I have them on my T's and that has not been a problem for me. I like to drive on country roads. That often means dust or mud. I'm also clumsy and sometimes drop things, so I appreciate the tool catchers. :)
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Dave S » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:43 pm

I use them because Ford did. But considering our 11, engine pans send air through the engine compartment. Between the engine pans, transmission pans and lack of louvers on the hood, air from the radiator goes under the car and by rolling the floor mat down warms the driver and passenger.


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Mark Osterman » Tue Nov 17, 2020 2:07 pm

Been trying to put together a pair of good original pans. Here is what I’ve found so far. Because i have a U&J carburetor I will need to modify the right side pan.
Attachments
E601C604-9502-425D-B529-593311C593EC.jpeg


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by dhosh » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:49 pm

Mark... Wonder if the right side guards get pulled and cast asside more often, than the left, because of the carburators?
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by SurfCityGene » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:27 pm

I didn't see any discussion about the early cars without any louvers.

After a very hot day on a tour in NE. my wife's feet got burned. I attempted to reduce the temp on the floor boards with insulation and some ducting around the exhaust and Also removed the splash pan on the exhaust / passenger side. My thought was that all the engine heat that developed under the hood had no way to get out except back thru the firewall into the passenger compartment and around our feet.

I really believe the removal of the right side pan lowered the temp under the hood on my '12 with no louvers.
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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Original Smith » Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:25 am

I think the style that Mark posted was used in 1924 too. My 1925 has a type that is similar, but has a round hold under the carburetor. Also, the back side of the pan is contoured, which is handy if running a speedometer. The one I use on my '25 was made by Tom Rootlieb several years ago, because all the originals I have are too beat up. The one Dan Treace pictured is what I use.


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Re: Engine splash pans

Post by Russ T Fender » Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:34 pm

I run my '10 and '14 without the pans in Florida and have never had a problem with overheating. I think the pans were intended to keep dirt and mud from unpaved roads out of things. That would be especially important for open valve engines. The early cars even had pans around the transmission and mine are sitting on the same shelf alongside the engine pans. Totally unnecessary and while they may look nice they make working on anything under the hood that much more difficult.

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